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    #31
    Originally posted by mbrooke View Post
    Look into "amp frame"


    Every amp trip has a maximum frame size, for example the highest you can can get for a 1 inch style 2 pole plug in breaker is 125 amps, that is unless you want to take up 4 spaces and a bit of gutter space its 200amps.










    Higher current ratings will have larger sizes, but you can also get smaller ratings in the same package to fit the same space.


    Ie, many years ago the number of spaces in load centers was limited, and a 125 amps 42 space panel was not available to my knowledge- but if you needed the space and 125amps was your service size, you could take a 200amp 42 space panel and swap the 200amp main with the exact 125 amp you pictured. It would fit will meeting code. Another common example is in switch-gear and panel boards where you have a location for a 400 amp frame, but need say a 20 amp lighting circuit.
    How about the tiny Din Rail breakers used in 230v countries. What is the smallest 125A form factor? Do you think they all use solenoids instead of magnetic strip?

    I guess in purely 230v countries. They only use din rail and no plug-in or bolt-on for residential use? In the Philippines. We have both plug-in and din rail for home use. Plug-in to take advantage of US breakers like GE. Din rail to take advantage of other brands of breakers.

    In the US black and red 240v phase to phase. If you put a European Din rail 230v breakers. It can work? I know the 120v to neutral won't work in din rail which is mostly 230v.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by tersh View Post
      How about the tiny Din Rail breakers used in 230v countries. What is the smallest 125A form factor? Do you think they all use solenoids instead of magnetic strip?
      I think 125 is the max amp rating you can get in a typical 16 amp package.

      The solenoid is the magnetic trip function.


      I guess in purely 230v countries. They only use din rail and no plug-in or bolt-on for residential use? In the Philippines. We have both plug-in and din rail for home use. Plug-in to take advantage of US breakers like GE. Din rail to take advantage of other brands of breakers.

      The world has 2 markets basically, or rather started off with two different designs and codes as created by two different super powers:


      1. The US style of breakers and panel-boards with UL and NEC standards dictating the product, and wired to the NEC or a code based on the NEC (ie CEC is based on the NEC). The set standard is 120 volts line to ground, 60Hz. Much the same with utility systems, NESC and IEEE dictate most of it.


      2. The European style of equipment, designed and standardized around European codes and safety standards. Latter this would give rise to the IEC set out to harmonize Germany, France and the United Kingdom. The set standard is 230 volts line to ground and 50Hz. Similar for utility systems, those countries developed their own independent standards, design, ect governing high voltage.


      As time went on, these two different standards spread outside the borders; Canada, Mexico and the Islands took what their neighbors had. Brazil took the 60Hz Mexico had. Similarly Russia, India and the middle east took what Europe had, and it continued to spread downwards.


      Areas occupied by the US that did not have power were built up on upon US standards, like Saudi Arabia and the Philippines. Places occupied by Europe took the European standard like Jamaica for example, British occupied territory even has BS1363 plug thousands of miles away. Also the reason why Japan has 50Hz on one side 60 on the other- those tasked with electrifying it built to the standard they grew up with.


      Today however with both systems in place and a global economy with the desire to standardize you have both systems along with their variants clashing together.

      The Philippines is a perfect example of this, its entirely based on US design but sees the cost savings and simplicity in wiring to 230 volts and using 230 volt equipment common to that part of the world. Jamaica is 50Hz, but uses 120 volt equipment despite often being incompatible because their closet trading partners are 120 volt.


      In the US black and red 240v phase to phase. If you put a European Din rail 230v breakers. It can work? I know the 120v to neutral won't work in din rail which is mostly 230v.

      It will certainly work- regular DIN IEC breakers do not care about voltage.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by mbrooke View Post
        I think 125 is the max amp rating you can get in a typical 16 amp package.

        The solenoid is the magnetic trip function.
        Thanks a lot for the summary.
        What do you mean by "16 amp package"?

        Do you have samples of what the main panels (say 16 breaker panel) look like for those countries that use purely din rail breakers? Is it all horizontal? What is equivalent that look like the American plug-in panels (rectangular vertical)?




        The world has 2 markets basically, or rather started off with two different designs and codes as created by two different super powers:


        1. The US style of breakers and panel-boards with UL and NEC standards dictating the product, and wired to the NEC or a code based on the NEC (ie CEC is based on the NEC). The set standard is 120 volts line to ground, 60Hz. Much the same with utility systems, NESC and IEEE dictate most of it.


        2. The European style of equipment, designed and standardized around European codes and safety standards. Latter this would give rise to the IEC set out to harmonize Germany, France and the United Kingdom. The set standard is 230 volts line to ground and 50Hz. Similar for utility systems, those countries developed their own independent standards, design, ect governing high voltage.


        As time went on, these two different standards spread outside the borders; Canada, Mexico and the Islands took what their neighbors had. Brazil took the 60Hz Mexico had. Similarly Russia, India and the middle east took what Europe had, and it continued to spread downwards.


        Areas occupied by the US that did not have power were built up on upon US standards, like Saudi Arabia and the Philippines. Places occupied by Europe took the European standard like Jamaica for example, British occupied territory even has BS1363 plug thousands of miles away. Also the reason why Japan has 50Hz on one side 60 on the other- those tasked with electrifying it built to the standard they grew up with.


        Today however with both systems in place and a global economy with the desire to standardize you have both systems along with their variants clashing together.

        The Philippines is a perfect example of this, its entirely based on US design but sees the cost savings and simplicity in wiring to 230 volts and using 230 volt equipment common to that part of the world. Jamaica is 50Hz, but uses 120 volt equipment despite often being incompatible because their closet trading partners are 120 volt.





        It will certainly work- regular DIN IEC breakers do not care about voltage.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by tersh View Post
          Thanks a lot for the summary.
          What do you mean by "16 amp package"?
          One of this physical size:




          Do you have samples of what the main panels (say 16 breaker panel) look like for those countries that use purely din rail breakers? Is it all horizontal? What is equivalent that look like the American plug-in panels (rectangular vertical)?


          Yes, here is a British Consumer unit:












          One with RCBOs:





          France:










          Comment


            #35
            mbrooke.. why are all the panels plastic? Can it contain any arcing or fires inside the panel or in the breakers? I saw in youtube many american metal panels with burning or fried breakers. Does it mean bus bar less din rail breakers are more resistant to arcing and fire?

            Also is there 5mA RCD personal protection? How does it look like when integrated in the panels. I couldn't find one last year that was why I made the following choice.




            I couldn't find any 5mA RCD with auto monitoring self-test. So settled with the state of the art Siemens 2-pole GFCI breakers 5mA with circuit based auto-monitoring Self-Test.

            It is full house GFCI protection (even the lights were protected). The electrician with 2 supervising electrical engineers were currently making it as the main panel with subpanel feed of by one 60A GFCI breaker using AWG 6 wire.

            It is 100% nuisance tripping free. It doesn't nuisance trip on refrigerators, water pik motors, airconditioners etc, where the 240v GFCI receptacles could nuisance trip on them consistently. Also GFCI receptacles can't protect 6000w bath heaters which need 30A breakers and air conditioners.

            The great thing about full house GFCI protection is that it can detect wiring that has one live touching the concrete. We have detected 2 wiring that continuously tripped on the GFCI breakers at power on. It is wiring to the washing machine and wiring to the attic outlets. The former owner said the attic outlets have shorted before and some wires cut. But they still use the wires remaining. The GFCI is able to detect that the remaining wire has touched concrete already.
            [COLOR=#222222]And the washing machine outlet were just added by electrician latter with cement filing up the hole. So full house GFCI protection is very important in third world countries especially since we don't have any EGC, GEC. [/COLOR]

            Well. Right now. Maybe the house is the only full house GFCI protected one in the country so far, lol.

            Btw.. one of the engineers told me last week the panel above can cause arc flash, hence must be covered at all times in between works. This was the main reason I inquired about arc flash lately. I don't inquire things I dreamt the night before as one guy commented. Lol. Since I'm also an engineer. Then I really need to the bottom of this arc flash thing so I can inform the engineer about source incident energy and arc flash.

            And oh. The feeders diverge immediately after the exit in different directions so it doesn't make the 24 inches length that should cause 50% deratement. Besides the autotransformer which powers the 120v Siemens GFCI circuitry. What other violations of NEC?

            This setup can also be used by all other 240v countries (where it's 240v to 0v neutral instead of centertapped neutral)?
            Last edited by tersh; 02-06-19, 08:25 PM.

            Comment


              #36
              Britain allowed plastic breaker panel boxes until a study found they could catch fire supposedly... so they now require metal boxes but... I would prefer the plastic boxes for the installs I do...
              Amendment three jokes..lol just another excuse to make a certain group of people extra money in required training and courses for no real return.
              Student of electrical codes. Please Take others advice first.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by mbrooke View Post
                IEC breakers tend to have solenoids to help lower the magnetic trip threshold. At 230 volt line to ground its a good idea to have a quick disconnect time when a fault occurs.


                In terms of reliability and lifetime. Which in your research lasts longer,. the din rail IEC MCB (Miniaturized Circuit Breakers) or the North American Breakers (Plug in, Bolt On, Molded Case?

                Could the miniaturized breakers be more prone to heat since there is less space inside?

                In the din rail IEC MCB, the coil thing is the solenoid. While in the US breakers, the electromagnet is simply this:



                Do you have internal diagram of the electromagnet strip? Does it have coil inside it?

                Which can act faster and more reliable?

                In Europe. What is the most expensive and highest quality din rail IEC MCB (Miniaturized Circuit Breakers)? In US. It's Square D, Siemens, General Electric which are the plug in leaders for example.

                Thanks.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by tersh View Post
                  mbrooke.. why are all the panels plastic? Can it contain any arcing or fires inside the panel or in the breakers?
                  Honestly I do not know why they are plastic- but as of late in the UK metal ones have become mandatory for new installations or consumer unit changes. Here is an example of one:




                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ZU8QlSnVs


                  I saw in youtube many american metal panels with burning or fried breakers. Does it mean bus bar less din rail breakers are more resistant to arcing and fire?

                  Well, if you take a look at this site, its clear DIN rail breakers are just as bad:

                  http://www.kontrollbuero.ch/fotogalerie/fotogalerie.htm

                  Also is there 5mA RCD personal protection? How does it look like when integrated in the panels. I couldn't find one last year that was why I made the following choice.

                  In the UK its usually 30ma for panels, sometimes less for RCD sockets. This one though is 30ma:





                  I couldn't find any 5mA RCD with auto monitoring self-test. So settled with the state of the art Siemens 2-pole GFCI breakers 5mA with circuit based auto-monitoring Self-Test.

                  It is full house GFCI protection (even the lights were protected). The electrician with 2 supervising electrical engineers were currently making it as the main panel with subpanel feed of by one 60A GFCI breaker using AWG 6 wire.
                  Sounds good to me, and wise to do with no EGC.

                  It is 100% nuisance tripping free. It doesn't nuisance trip on refrigerators, water pik motors, airconditioners etc, where the 240v GFCI receptacles could nuisance trip on them consistently. Also GFCI receptacles can't protect 6000w bath heaters which need 30A breakers and air conditioners.
                  Question- what wire size to general sockets is being used? What is it protected at?

                  The great thing about full house GFCI protection is that it can detect wiring that has one live touching the concrete. We have detected 2 wiring that continuously tripped on the GFCI breakers at power on. It is wiring to the washing machine and wiring to the attic outlets. The former owner said the attic outlets have shorted before and some wires cut. But they still use the wires remaining. The GFCI is able to detect that the remaining wire has touched concrete already.
                  [COLOR=#222222]And the washing machine outlet were just added by electrician latter with cement filing up the hole. So full house GFCI protection is very important in third world countries especially since we don't have any EGC, GEC. [/COLOR]
                  Fully agree- if you do not have an EGC you need RCDs/GFCIs. It scenarios like yours which show just how a wiring system that appears fine could have future fires and electrocutions just sitting there.


                  Well. Right now. Maybe the house is the only full house GFCI protected one in the country so far, lol.

                  Btw.. one of the engineers told me last week the panel above can cause arc flash, hence must be covered at all times in between works. This was the main reason I inquired about arc flash lately. I don't inquire things I dreamt the night before as one guy commented. Lol. Since I'm also an engineer. Then I really need to the bottom of this arc flash thing so I can inform the engineer about source incident energy and arc flash.

                  And oh. The feeders diverge immediately after the exit in different directions so it doesn't make the 24 inches length that should cause 50% deratement. Besides the autotransformer which powers the 120v Siemens GFCI circuitry. What other violations of NEC?

                  There are several NEC violations, but in this case given what you have to work with it appears resaonbaly safe.


                  This setup can also be used by all other 240v countries (where it's 240v to 0v neutral instead of centertapped neutral)?

                  It can be- but those siemens AFCI breakers would not work.


                  Given what the Phillipines has to work with, I think the country should consider switching to an IEC based code- for example TT earth is legal in such codes, and would help with the lack of neutrals at the service.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by tersh View Post
                    In terms of reliability and lifetime. Which in your research lasts longer,. the din rail IEC MCB (Miniaturized Circuit Breakers) or the North American Breakers (Plug in, Bolt On, Molded Case?

                    Well, thats hard to say- but I do know that breakers installed outdoors or in a wet basement, even in a proper enclosures- are many times more likely to seize up.






                    Could the miniaturized breakers be more prone to heat since there is less space inside?

                    All thermal magnetic breakers are effected by heat to some degree, which is why the NEC has the 80% rule for loads running longer then 3 hours or specific equipment.


                    However, in residential the load is so cyclic that even if you sized circuits and breakers at 100% I doubt it would be an issue, even with electric heat. In the IEC world residential and light commercial is sized at 100%, even with loads running longer then 3 hours and there is no issue.

                    Now if dealing with a factory or a huge panel with every circuit loaded to the max 24/7 designing to 80% might be a good idea.


                    Now, if there is one design the may be susceptible in a well loaded panel I give you these beasties to the right






                    A.k.a GE THQP and tandem breakers.







                    In the din rail IEC MCB, the coil thing is the solenoid. While in the US breakers, the electromagnet is simply this:

                    [/QUOTE]

                    That is the electromagnet, at least it pretends to FPE breakers. FPE breakers have been tested an its been determined that strip does absolutely nothing. Fortunately in modern US breakers the story is different, the magnetic trip works and clears high current dead shorts very fast.







                    Do you have internal diagram of the electromagnet strip? Does it have coil inside it?
                    No coil, its a movable piece that attracts to another piece carrying current.



                    Which can act faster and more reliable?

                    I'd say the US design is slightly more reliable.

                    Both are equally fast when current exceeds the trip threshold. I'd argue the US design might be a hair faster because it directly unlatches the breaker where as in the IEC the solenoid pin has to strike a level and move a few more parts to unlatch.


                    However, the IEC design allows the breaker to have a lower magnetic pickup when needed. B type MCBs have a magnetic pickup of around 3-5x, while US breakers are around 10x.






                    In Europe. What is the most expensive and highest quality din rail IEC MCB (Miniaturized Circuit Breakers)? In US. It's Square D, Siemens, General Electric which are the plug in leaders for example.

                    Thanks.


                    In Europe I'm not 100% sure- but certainly look for big brands like ABB and Siemens. Avoid off label or mystery brands- and look for a certificate to make sure its not counterfeit. You might guess this "slow blow" marvel:







                    In the US Square D in my opinion is the best, both their QO and Homeline brands are great.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by mbrooke View Post
                      Honestly I do not know why they are plastic- but as of late in the UK metal ones have become mandatory for new installations or consumer unit changes. Here is an example of one:




                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ZU8QlSnVs





                      Well, if you take a look at this site, its clear DIN rail breakers are just as bad:

                      http://www.kontrollbuero.ch/fotogalerie/fotogalerie.htm




                      In the UK its usually 30ma for panels, sometimes less for RCD sockets. This one though is 30ma:







                      Sounds good to me, and wise to do with no EGC.



                      Question- what wire size to general sockets is being used? What is it protected at?
                      The 30A GFCI breakers use AWG 10 wire to the sockets. The 60A GFCI breakers use AWG 6 to the subpanel. It is the main panel. The electrician and even some engineers didn't suggest 20 space Siemens load center last year as we were not even sure it could work, so settled for the 12 space (6 breakers only). I mean, what if it would nuisance trip on the fridge, air conditioning units, others. Fortunately it has zero nuisance tripping, unlike the GFCI receptacles which can trip on the fridge twice a day for example.


                      [COLOR=#000000]
                      However, the IEC design allows the breaker to have a lower magnetic pickup when needed. B type MCBs have a magnetic pickup of around 3-5x, while US breakers are around 10x.

                      US breakers can trip when overcurrent reaches 20X. What brands or categories are 20X and which is 10X? And did you mean in the B type MCBs. It can trip just 5x overcurrent? Then it is better. For main breaker (or backup disconnect) in residential, do you think B type MCBs is better? or would it nuisance trip on the fridge, washing machine, water pump, etc.? What is the minimum magnetic pickup for residential?
                      [/COLOR]



                      Fully agree- if you do not have an EGC you need RCDs/GFCIs. It scenarios like yours which show just how a wiring system that appears fine could have future fires and electrocutions just sitting there.





                      There are several NEC violations, but in this case given what you have to work with it appears resaonbaly safe.





                      It can be- but those siemens AFCI breakers would not work.


                      Given what the Phillipines has to work with, I think the country should consider switching to an IEC based code- for example TT earth is legal in such codes, and would help with the lack of neutrals at the service.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by tersh View Post
                        The 30A GFCI breakers use AWG 10 wire to the sockets. The 60A GFCI breakers use AWG 6 to the subpanel. It is the main panel. The electrician and even some engineers didn't suggest 20 space Siemens load center last year as we were not even sure it could work, so settled for the 12 space (6 breakers only). I mean, what if it would nuisance trip on the fridge, air conditioning units, others. Fortunately it has zero nuisance tripping, unlike the GFCI receptacles which can trip on the fridge twice a day for example.

                        Technically this is a code violation- 15[COLOR=#000000]amp sockets can not be on a circuit larger then 20amps. Technically- but if its custom throughout the Philippines it is what it is. [/COLOR]
                        [COLOR=#000000][/COLOR]

                        [COLOR=#000000]

                        US breakers can trip when overcurrent reaches 20X. What brands or categories are 20X and which is 10X? And did you mean in the B type MCBs. It can trip just 5x overcurrent? Then it is better. For main breaker (or backup disconnect) in residential, do you think B type MCBs is better? or would it nuisance trip on the fridge, washing machine, water pump, etc.? What is the minimum magnetic pickup for residential?
                        [/COLOR]

                        Most older single pole breakers had a very high magnetic trip value well exceeding 20x with some having no magnetic trip at all. In the late 80s US manufactures started lowering the magnetic trip value on single pole breakers sold in the US. Today the pickup usually starts around 10x for single poles, but double poles are often around 20x.


                        Regarding the IEC Type B is around 3-5X, C is 5-10X and D is 10-20X.

                        https://library.e.abb.com/public/114...D0201_view.pdf


                        Having a breaker trip magnetically during a fault reduces the incident energy at the short circuit point and in the IEC its used to acheive disconnection time requirements.


                        At the same time you need to consider appliance inrush. In Europe type B MCBs do well on general use 230 volt socket circuits; but for things like motors, ballasts, transformers and other large appliances type C is used. You could also do D if you really wanted to make sure the food in your fridge doesn't go bad.


                        In the end B, C or D is not relevant- as long as a short circuit at the furthest point in the fixed wiring is capable of tripping the breaker magnetically you are fine in the eyes of the IEC.

                        Under the NEC however disconnection times are not mandated, mostly because at 120 volts L-G the need is less so in that a person will only encounter 60 volts on the frame of an appliance during a short circuit vs 115 volts.


                        During a short circuit the voltage on average divides evenly between the hot wire and ground wire, with the fault point being the midway mark.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by mbrooke View Post
                          Technically this is a code violation- 15[COLOR=#000000]amp sockets can not be on a circuit larger then 20amps. Technically- but if its custom throughout the Philippines it is what it is. [/COLOR]
                          In old houses in the Philippines where breakers were put without following the electrical plans and no inspections of any kind. All the breakers are 30A and all wires at AWG 10, even to the sockets and to a single room light in one 30A breaker.

                          But since the load of most people are only less than 5A mostly, then it can't exceed 15A. Of course if 15A is exceeded and the wire used and breaker used is 30A, the outlets can burn.

                          In commercial buildings. We are more strict as the loads are more. Anyway. We have 20A socket, what is the maximum socket amperage you have in the US?







                          Most older single pole breakers had a very high magnetic trip value well exceeding 20x with some having no magnetic trip at all. In the late 80s US manufactures started lowering the magnetic trip value on single pole breakers sold in the US. Today the pickup usually starts around 10x for single poles, but double poles are often around 20x.


                          Regarding the IEC Type B is around 3-5X, C is 5-10X and D is 10-20X.

                          https://library.e.abb.com/public/114...D0201_view.pdf


                          Having a breaker trip magnetically during a fault reduces the incident energy at the short circuit point and in the IEC its used to acheive disconnection time requirements.


                          At the same time you need to consider appliance inrush. In Europe type B MCBs do well on general use 230 volt socket circuits; but for things like motors, ballasts, transformers and other large appliances type C is used. You could also do D if you really wanted to make sure the food in your fridge doesn't go bad.


                          In the end B, C or D is not relevant- as long as a short circuit at the furthest point in the fixed wiring is capable of tripping the breaker magnetically you are fine in the eyes of the IEC.

                          Under the NEC however disconnection times are not mandated, mostly because at 120 volts L-G the need is less so in that a person will only encounter 60 volts on the frame of an appliance during a short circuit vs 115 volts.


                          During a short circuit the voltage on average divides evenly between the hot wire and ground wire, with the fault point being the midway mark.
                          In our country where plug in, bolt on panels were mostly used years ago. Now we have mostly small din rail breakers used in new condominium and houses. In the following I just took in the store display. What is the amp frame of either and MCB type. Where are they written?




                          What years in the US when it's like in the Philippines where plans were not being followed in houses and no inspections of any kinds.

                          The ones affected are mostly the poor living in wooden houses. When one house burns, thousand of houses burn together. We don't have the political will, budget, and wide knowledge to make house inspection mandatory. Commercial building Inspectors are so poor they are making about $10 a day. And so they always accept $20 bribe so even in commercial buildings, the specs are not followed because of cost cutting by contractors.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by tersh View Post
                            In old houses in the Philippines where breakers were put without following the electrical plans and no inspections of any kind. All the breakers are 30A and all wires at AWG 10, even to the sockets and to a single room light in one 30A breaker.

                            Understandable- fortunately the most important aspect has been followed in that the wire gauge matches the breaker, so you are good.


                            But since the load of most people are only less than 5A mostly, then it can't exceed 15A. Of course if 15A is exceeded and the wire used and breaker used is 30A, the outlets can burn.
                            But what if the cord short circuits? In the UK where the circuits are 32amps, fuses are put in the plugs.

                            In commercial buildings. We are more strict as the loads are more. Anyway. We have 20A socket, what is the maximum socket amperage you have in the US?

                            Maximum NEMA straight blade is 60amps in the US. There are pin and sleeve











                            In our country where plug in, bolt on panels were mostly used years ago. Now we have mostly small din rail breakers used in new condominium and houses. In the following I just took in the store display. What is the amp frame of either and MCB type. Where are they written?

                            The one on the left is 100amp, the one on the right is 16 amp. It is next to the "C", the "C" means that it is a C trip curve.


                            What years in the US when it's like in the Philippines where plans were not being followed in houses and no inspections of any kinds.

                            The ones affected are mostly the poor living in wooden houses. When one house burns, thousand of houses burn together. We don't have the political will, budget, and wide knowledge to make house inspection mandatory. Commercial building Inspectors are so poor they are making about $10 a day. And so they always accept $20 bribe so even in commercial buildings, the specs are not followed because of cost cutting by contractors.

                            IMO, greater concern lies in educating the people of the country. You would think the US has wiring that gets regular inspections, but truth is DIYs are constantly adding and upgrading in their homes without permits and homes never see any type of electrical inspection other then a rudimentary "home inspection" when the house is being sold. Some of the work is good, others down right scary. What makes the difference is when the person doing it cares and understands.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by mbrooke View Post
                              Understandable- fortunately the most important aspect has been followed in that the wire gauge matches the breaker, so you are good.




                              But what if the cord short circuits? In the UK where the circuits are 32amps, fuses are put in the plugs.
                              If the breaker is 30A, the wire is AWG 10, the socket is 15A, if the AWG 18 cord short circuits, it should trip the 30A breaker, isn't it?



                              Maximum NEMA straight blade is 60amps in the US. There are pin and sleeve














                              The one on the left is 100amp, the one on the right is 16 amp. It is next to the "C", the "C" means that it is a C trip curve.
                              There is a difference between amp trip and amp frame. The 100A and 16A is the amp trip. What is the amp frame? Earlier you mentioned to look at "amp frame" which is not the actual tripping amp, but the frame amperage only.




                              IMO, greater concern lies in educating the people of the country. You would think the US has wiring that gets regular inspections, but truth is DIYs are constantly adding and upgrading in their homes without permits and homes never see any type of electrical inspection other then a rudimentary "home inspection" when the house is being sold. Some of the work is good, others down right scary. What makes the difference is when the person doing it cares and understands.
                              In the Philippines, we don't have any DIY because hiring electrician only costs $10 a day, at most $20. So no owners would do it themselves unless they are engineers with electricians and other engineers backup.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by tersh View Post
                                If the breaker is 30A, the wire is AWG 10, the socket is 15A, if the AWG 18 cord short circuits, it should trip the 30A breaker, isn't it?
                                No grantee. 18 awg and a 30amp OCPD- thats pushing it.

                                There is a difference between amp trip and amp frame. The 100A and 16A is the amp trip. What is the amp frame? Earlier you mentioned to look at "amp frame" which is not the actual tripping amp, but the frame amperage only.

                                Amp frame would technically be 125 amps as I think that is the largest size you can get in the 1 inch format. Amp trip and amp frame applies more to switch gear - here you would just call them DIN MCBs.


                                In the Philippines, we don't have any DIY because hiring electrician only costs $10 a day, at most $20. So no owners would do it themselves unless they are engineers with electricians and other engineers backup.
                                I see.

                                Comment

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