Ridiculous law WA L&I

[Besoeker3]

Things have tightened considerably since 911.

I'm sure.
But the Sandy Hook incident was over a year later.

 

[electrofelon]

.

I never worked on high security projects but did schools etc. Wear a tool pouch, act like you belonged there, and seldom if ever questioned who, what, why.

Where’s the girls locker rooms?

Second hall, right, two more, then left.

Always amazed me, even then.

I agree: wear a hardhat, reflective vest and carry a clipboard and you can go just about anywhere.

 

[ggunn]

There is a law in Illinois that contractors have to have their license number on their vehicles. It doesn't seem to be all that well enforced.

There is an ordinance to that effect here in Austin, and it cannot be a magnetic sign.

A humorous aside: My wife is a graphic designer, and a female business owner friend of hers contracted her to make a pair of magnetic signs for the doors of her landscape business' truck. When she got the signs she found that the door shells on her truck are fiberglass.

 

[tom baker]

And how does he verify the document displayed belongs to the individual "using it"? Or is that written into some of the finer print of the law?

There is a rule change pending adoption to require electrician/trainee to have and produce a gov issued ID card. And if I recall, a fine if you are caught using someone elses ID.

I don't work as an electrician, but hear the stories and comments...

 

[kwired]

I thought about this a little more. I had two lanyards I wore on site.
As I mentioned before, one was my site safety passport. Photographic ID, passport number and company details.
The other was my Eaton ID. Again, photographic ID, company address, and business contact details.

No problem with either as far as I was concerned. The customer ought to know who is in his facility/property. Some of our customers were military/naval. Getting into Portsmouth dockyard was like getting into Fort Knox.

I have no problem with owners wanting ID badges for security reasons. OP was about carrying (in the open) a license from the State AHJ. This serves no real purpose IMO other then to make it a little easier for inspectors to verify you have licensed individuals or even registered apprentices on the job when they show up. Sort of no different then having laws that require you to actually wear your drivers license when driving an automobile. They ever try to pull that kind of thing around here, I will be one of the first to be demanding the inspectors also wear their certifications. Inspectors here must be a journeyman or higher to even qualify for a job, and then they eventually do get some sort of inspectors certification - I believe normally through IAEI.

Things have tightened considerably since 911.

Like me you are probably in somewhat small schools when you are working in a school. It's not that they haven't tightened security at them, most of them have completely different security approach then they had 20 years ago, but is just easier to manage who is in the building at all times in a smaller facility, plus if it is a regular client, the staff gets to know you anyway and knows when you are there you typically do electrical work.

 

[sameguy]

School job, first school to install wifi throughout; plus remodel, told us to go get badges the first day so every trade is standing in line waiting. I get to my turn first question "what's your social security number" I ask why, "it's going to be your ID badge number" I reply 987654321, that was my number everyone else walked around with their SS# for all to see. We got the wifi running and a kid who lived next to the school hacked in and change all the grades for him and his friends. Of course everyone's SS#, names, birthday, address, had to give drivers license. Could have been compromised. I had fun the next day soon everyone was getting new ID badges.

 

[tom baker]

A few comments from our stakeholders meetings, where the Chief Electrical Inspector meets with electricans across the state.
The requirement for the visible ID has worked well and saves time on larger jobs, the AHJ can look across the jobsite and see who is certfied and if a journeylevel, limited, or trainee. The AHJ does not have to ask who the electrican is.

My comment is and I am just passing this along is, the purpose state for the visble ID was to help fight the underground economy. In 2018 there was 260,000 inspections and 5,772 citations (according to the chief) to unlicensed contractors, thats work out of the licensed contractors pockets.
By now most are used to the visible ID requirement and this stakeholder meeting there were no complaints about it.

The chief mentioned that L&I is working on having a photo on your certification. There are couple of rule changes comning in July that will require producing a gov issued photo ID on request. When the public comment period opens in April, I will suggest that the ID has to be worn with the name out and has to be an orginal certficate, not a copy

 

[kwired]

A few comments from our stakeholders meetings, where the Chief Electrical Inspector meets with electricans across the state.
The requirement for the visible ID has worked well and saves time on larger jobs, the AHJ can look across the jobsite and see who is certfied and if a journeylevel, limited, or trainee. The AHJ does not have to ask who the electrican is.

My comment is and I am just passing this along is, the purpose state for the visble ID was to help fight the underground economy. In 2018 there was 260,000 inspections and 5,772 citations (according to the chief) to unlicensed contractors, thats work out of the licensed contractors pockets.
By now most are used to the visible ID requirement and this stakeholder meeting there were no complaints about it.

The chief mentioned that L&I is working on having a photo on your certification. There are couple of rule changes comning in July that will require producing a gov issued photo ID on request. When the public comment period opens in April, I will suggest that the ID has to be worn with the name out and has to be an orginal certficate, not a copy

I didn't go through the thread again, but did we confirm how this must be displayed/worn? I think there were safety concerns with using machinery/tools right out the gate in this thread and having say a lanyard style method of wearing this.

This is more for convenience of the inspectors the way I see it and potentially disregards safety of the worker. If you can produce your identification and your license without having to leave the job site so what if it inconveniences the inspector. I'd rather see inspector spend a couple hours looking at credentials of everyone on the job than see one guy get caught up in a power tool with his credentials that belong at very least in his pocket.

 

[Coppersmith]

How hard is it to forge these credentials? If I were going to risk unlicensed operation, I might just risk forging my ID as well.

 

[Cow]

We don't use lanyards, we use an armband type:

 

[kwired]

How hard is it to forge these credentials? If I were going to risk unlicensed operation, I might just risk forging my ID as well.

That is my other issue with such requirements.

The requirement for the visible ID has worked well and saves time on larger jobs, the AHJ can look across the jobsite and see who is certfied and if a journeylevel, limited, or trainee.

Didn't accomplish anything other than make the inspector feel like it did if there are forged certificates within the group.

So we also have the situation of inspector proceeding to write up a guy that is qualified but simply lost or forgot his credentials that day while the next guy is a complete fake and isn't even questioned simply because he had something to show.

I have no issue with some jobs wanting identification for owners and/or the contractors security reasons, though there obviously can still be holes in the system, but makes no sense to me for outsiders to try to enforce such a thing.

Does make more sense to me for facility manager to have a record of who is working, what visitors, contractors etc. are on the site and records that indicate what their credentials are and let the inspector look at that information. He still won't know if something is forged without some investigating though.

 

[Sparks4All]

I work in WA on occasion. I had my license on a lanyard. I was wearing a coat one day and the lanyard was on the inside. The inspector showed up and gave me a whole lecture on how I was not complying with their rules. I started wearing an armband after that. It is silly.

 

[kwired]

I work in WA on occasion. I had my license on a lanyard. I was wearing a coat one day and the lanyard was on the inside. The inspector showed up and gave me a whole lecture on how I was not complying with their rules. I started wearing an armband after that. It is silly.

Seems your armband could easily end up under your coat also

Did inspector have his credentials displayed in plain view? If it was cold and you needed a coat, he possibly needed one too and might have covered his credentials as well. If he don't need to show them why should you have any reason to listen to anything he says?

 

[Coppersmith]

Seems your armband could easily end up under your coat also

Did inspector have his credentials displayed in plain view? If it was cold and you needed a coat, he possibly needed one too and might have covered his credentials as well. If he don't need to show them why should you have any reason to listen to anything he says?

You to the inspector: "I'll show you mine if you show me yours."

 

[tom baker]

I work in WA on occasion. I had my license on a lanyard. I was wearing a coat one day and the lanyard was on the inside. The inspector showed up and gave me a whole lecture on how I was not complying with their rules. I started wearing an armband after that. It is silly.

If you were wearing rain gear you would been allowed to have it inside. IMO rain gear does not have to be a yellow slicker.

 

[tortuga]

Im sure I will get flack for this post but I’m curious if any other states require electricians to wear your electrical liscence visible on your person? Washington L&I requires this for only electricians. Not HVAC nor plumbers just electricians. We have to wear them on the outside of our clothing and above the waist at all times while on the job. I’ve been doing electrical a long time and to me this is a ridiculous law that is nothing more than a way for inspectors to harass us and generate more revenue in fines. It has the potential to be a safety issue as well as an easy way to lose a very costly card when you take off a shirt or jacket and forget about it. Or it simple falls off unknowingly while your working. The plumbers in Washington fought it a few years back by claiming it was a security issue that by having to where personal information out in the open for all to see. They won. Maybe I’m getting too old but this feels very totalitarian and big government to me. What are your thoughts on this? What other states require this for the electricians or other trades? Thanks in advance for your opinions.

We ran into this problem in Oregon years ago. Inspectors were hassling us about visible licenses and our safety guy strictly prohibited wearing even a wedding ring not to mention a lanyard or armband or anything like that. We were instructed to drop off any citations to HR whom had the legal department take care of them. Never herd a peep about it, inspectors quit asking after legal called their boss. We do have to wear ID's when entering and exiting secure areas, but not while 'engaging in work' or while using ladders. I believe there was a story of a incident with a clip on badge puncturing a lung after a ladder fall or something like that.

 

[kwired]

We ran into this problem in Oregon years ago. Inspectors were hassling us about visible licenses and our safety guy strictly prohibited wearing even a wedding ring not to mention a lanyard or armband or anything like that. We were instructed to drop off any citations to HR whom had the legal department take care of them. Never herd a peep about it, inspectors quit asking after legal called their boss. We do have to wear ID's when entering and exiting secure areas, but not while 'engaging in work' or while using ladders. I believe there was a story of a incident with a clip on badge puncturing a lung after a ladder fall or something like that.

And any place that has higher security procedures has the right to deny access to anyone that doesn't comply with their policy - including inspectors. Inspector may have state/local laws that say he must be able to inspect, but he also must comply with the owner's safety and security standards while on their premises. If wearing an ID or license creates a safety hazard that employer also has a responsibility to protect their workers from such hazards.

Requirement to be able to produce a license (in reasonable manner, like going out to the truck or to an office or a personal locker) when asked is one thing, forcing a worker to wear it is another. Not wearing it doesn't make you forget what you have learned to become licensed.

 

[StarCat]

By Definition

By Definition

Im sure I will get flack for this post but I’m curious if any other states require electricians to wear your electrical liscence visible on your person? Washington L&I requires this for only electricians. Not HVAC nor plumbers just electricians. We have to wear them on the outside of our clothing and above the waist at all times while on the job. I’ve been doing electrical a long time and to me this is a ridiculous law that is nothing more than a way for inspectors to harass us and generate more revenue in fines. It has the potential to be a safety issue as well as an easy way to lose a very costly card when you take off a shirt or jacket and forget about it. Or it simple falls off unknowingly while your working. The plumbers in Washington fought it a few years back by claiming it was a security issue that by having to where personal information out in the open for all to see. They won. Maybe I’m getting too old but this feels very totalitarian and big government to me. What are your thoughts on this? What other states require this for the electricians or other trades? Thanks in advance for your opinions.

You are correct this is a sign of someone within the " Big Brother " system with a major control trip. Also, its not a law, but rather a statute which is a " legal fiction lie " in essence. The only laws in existence are universal and have nothing to do with the printed or spoken words of men.

 

[Open Neutral]

Get a hunting jacket with that pouch on your back for the {hunting} license.....

Or get t-shirts made with your license silkscreened on them.....

 

[Frank DuVal]

Safety should be foremost in your work. Having to wear something on your body just gets in the way, with the real possibility of causing injury. I have worked in secure facilities in the past, requiring badges to enter. As soon as I was in, the badge went into a pocket. Nothing to get caught in a drill or other power tool. No rings either. I like all my fingers still attached the OEM way!