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mbrooke

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Without paying for access to UL's proprietary test standard, or reading how UL's test is conducted, I believe the circuit breaker has no AFCI functionality for UL's (AWDT) combo.


Then why would there a limit on cable length?

That limit is set assuming worse case conditions (weak utility source) that will still trip the breaker magnetically.

Therefore, the standard must require the AFCI outlet to reliably trip during test events that occur line-side of AFCI, along the home-run, before the first outlet, before the AFCI outlet.

How will tripping the AFCI de-energize the home run between the panel and first AFCI?

Its no surprise that AFCI's trip on line-side events. I've seen AFCI outlets trip from deteriorating nearby breakers in same panel, separated by several bus stabs and 50ft of Romex.

This stems from AFCIs not being able to recognize and discern ripples in a sign wave. Something like a downed wire miles away can trip them. This is not intended, but a consequence of insufficient computing power.

I believe (AWDT) is the first UL standard that requires AFCI's to reliability demonstrate operation from line-side events, that occur before the AFCI.

Series arc faults are taken care of the 210.12 A 4 a. At least I believe that is the intent to eliminate splices between the panel and first AFCI receptacle.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
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Then why would there a limit on cable length?
Perhaps un-sheilded Romex has a lower magnitude during signal propagation vs home runs in conduit, or cable armor.

That limit is set assuming worse case conditions (weak utility source) that will still trip the breaker magnetically.
Magnetic trip curves are a function of time & energy, which usually trip well before overloads in most conditions.

How will tripping the AFCI de-energize the home run between the panel and first AFCI?
Good question. A first outlet AFCI could only remove the load from arcs between the same wires, but not between different wires in home runs. The standard breaker magnetic trip and overload function would be tasked to deal with arc faults between different wires in home runs.

This stems from AFCIs not being able to recognize and discern ripples in a sign wave. Something like a downed wire miles away can trip them. This is not intended, but a consequence of insufficient computing power.
Perhaps not intended for several AFCI's to trip when only one is triggered, but not surprising when they are triggered by matching a wave form that can propagate from anywhere.

Series arc faults are taken care of the 210.12 A 4 a. At least I believe that is the intent to eliminate splices between the panel and first AFCI receptacle.
Please elaborate
 

mbrooke

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Perhaps un-sheilded Romex has a lower magnitude during signal propagation vs home runs in conduit, or cable armor.

Could be, but also remember that unshielded cable is more likely to be pierced by a nail or impacted by an over driven staple.


Magnetic trip curves are a function of time & energy, which usually trip well before overloads in most conditions.

Don't forget pickup values. There will always be point when cable length increases its impedance will increase to the point a dead short will not trigger the magnetic pickup. Available short circuit current is a function of the source impedance plus the conductors between the source and the fault.

Good question. A first outlet AFCI could only remove the load from arcs between the same wires, but not between different wires in home runs. The standard breaker magnetic trip and overload function would be tasked to deal with arc faults between different wires in home runs.


The overload function can be slower then 8 half cycles on a sputtering fault.

The breaker protects the home run against parallel arc faults, while the AFCI receptacle protects against parallel arc fault that may drop below 250amps as limited by the remaining circuit impedance (theorized to go as low as 75amps) and series arc faults 5 amps and over.

Perhaps not intended for several AFCI's to trip when only one is triggered, but not surprising when they are triggered by matching a wave form that can propagate from anywhere.

The look for certain ripples only, which is dumb because neither is the origin known nor what caused it.

Please elaborate


It requires that the run by continuous, so no splices or j-boxes. Thus, without worry of loose connections the series arc fault risk is considered small and as such the breaker does not have to have that function.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
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Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Don't forget pickup values. There will always be point when cable length increases its impedance will increase to the point a dead short will not trigger the magnetic pickup. Available short circuit current is a function of the source impedance plus the conductors between the source and the fault.
Yes, I see. Even with runs < 100ft, there are high-impedance glowing connections, high-Z device smokage, or appliance failures, where bolted faults may be no faster than overloads, or fail to trip at all.

The overload function can be slower then 8 half cycles on a sputtering fault.
Is a minimum number of cycles required for certain code standards?

The breaker protects the home run against parallel arc faults, while the AFCI receptacle protects against parallel arc fault that may drop below 250amps as limited by the remaining circuit impedance (theorized to go as low as 75amps) and series arc faults 5 amps and over.
Is that another standard requirement?

It requires that the run by continuous, so no splices or j-boxes. Thus, without worry of loose connections the series arc fault risk is considered small and as such the breaker does not have to have that function.
Thank you
 

mbrooke

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Yes, I see. Even with runs < 100ft, there are high-impedance glowing connections, high-Z device smokage, or appliance failures, where bolted faults may be no faster than overloads, or fail to trip at all.


You don't have appliances or glowing connections between the panel and first AFCI receptacle.

70 feet the the max distance with a weak utility source that a fault will still trip the breaker.


Is a minimum number of cycles required for certain code standards?

Yes, ul1699 requires that AFCIs trip for arc faults within 8 half cycles.

Is that another standard requirement?

75amps is the pickup for parellel arc faults in AFCIs, 5 amps is the pickup for series arc faults.



Thank you


Weclome :)
 

romex jockey

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Where did that info come from?

Many years of being a 'fly on the wall' of international patent wars

(A)(2) is what addresses the old non combination AFCI breakers and an AFCI device at the first outlet.

well what did anyone expect when the 2nd generation of nema-afci task force trashed the 1st's creation?

UL had a supplemental arc protection breaker, which was just a guaranteed low mag trip breaker. The project was cancelled.

Then why would there a limit on cable length?

That limit is set assuming worse case conditions (weak utility source) that will still trip the breaker magnetically.

Unfortunate.

what we lack is an understanding of "non sinusodial waveform with high peak currents, but low RMS currents" juxtaposed to magnetic trip incorporating coils for more immediate action

Fwiw, it took an EE to enlighten me to this....:thumbsup:~RJ~
 

mbrooke

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Unfortunate.

what we lack is an understanding of "non sinusodial waveform with high peak currents, but low RMS currents" juxtaposed to magnetic trip incorporating coils for more immediate action

Fwiw, it took an EE to enlighten me to this....:thumbsup:~RJ~


And it was this which let UL change the definition or arcing to fit its client's desires.


An arc will not draw current in all parts of a sine wave, and neither will a sputtering fault- however one does not substitute the other. Far from it.
 

romex jockey

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electrician
Add to that UL did far more than redefine , they invented a standard vs. testing to one re; 1699, rather unprecedented of them. The original nema-afci task force disbanded over this, nema simply remanned afci-task force 2 with sorts who held no objection to it all


~RJ~
 

mbrooke

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Technician
Add to that UL did far more than redefine , they invented a standard vs. testing to one re; 1699, rather unprecedented of them. The original nema-afci task force disbanded over this, nema simply remanned afci-task force 2 with sorts who held no objection to it all


~RJ~

Everything regarding AFCIs is invented to fit the claimed need for them.
 
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