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    #16
    Originally posted by kwired View Post
    So what is tripping, the GFCI, the AFCI, both? You seem to be claiming the GFCI is the problem yet you never said whether it is tripping. I expect some spark in any 1200 watt load when it makes or breaks. AFCI's are supposed to be able to reject that as a trip condition.
    To answer your question:
    The GFCI never trips.
    The Siemens AFCI reports an arc fault when the particular older Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
    The Siemens AFCI does not trip when a new Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
    When both are in line, the trip happens.
    The arc fault happens with a washer, hair dryer, angle grinder and instant pot (so far). If I go back I'll try a toaster or some other simple resistive load.

    The trip happens only under load: at small draw it holds.

    ---
    The instant pot is defective. The glowing contact is on a pressure overload disconnect that should be normally closed. It's a literal red herring here: the pot was pulled in just to exclude the washer as the source of the problem.

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      #17
      The following set of tests addresses glowing contact AFCI claims:
      http://combinationafci.com/resources...ation_afci.pdf
      COMBINATION AFCIs: WHAT THEY WILL AND WILL NOT DO
      Joseph C Engel, PhD
      Member, IEEE
      107 Overlook Circle
      Monroeville PA 15146
      Presented at the 19th Annual IEEE IAS Electrical Safety Workshop, Daytona Beach, Jan/Feb 2012

      I don't have a position on the glowing contact. It just came up due to the random grabbing of a test appliance for the AFCI/GFCI weirdness.

      Comment


        #18
        The GFCI never trips.
        The Siemens AFCI reports an arc fault when the particular older Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
        The Siemens AFCI does not trip when a new Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
        Wouldn't it be safe to assume then that the new GFCI outlet eliminates or attenuates the arc transient traveling through it so that the AFCI doesn't respond to it? And the older GFCI receptacle doesn't do that?

        The only way to prove this is to look at the voltage before and after the receptacle as the condition occurs with a scope. But at this point I (at least) am pretty sure this is what's happening.

        -Hal

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          #19
          Originally posted by brycenesbitt View Post
          To answer your question:
          The Siemens AFCI does not trip when a new Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
          1) Hal is asking if AFCI tripped with plain old 3-prong plug you used, when no GFCI was is inline?

          2) Can you explain why AFCI code compliance was so important to you?
          ...a) Did you expect it required by Municipal or Home Inspection?
          ...b) If not inspected, do you care about property insurance Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) that deny's claims?
          ...c) Are you just a code wonk that does your best to follow code rules?

          Most AFCI's that I install are for existing wiring, new outlets, & old work. My clients are educated why its in there best interest that no legal cause exists for property insurance to void claims, including checking the smokes & batteries.

          Many remodel contractors on this forum openly refuse to install AFCI's, subjecting their clients to denial of claims by insurance investigators.

          Granted owner-builder remodels are rarely inspected, and its not enforced, but I believe refusing required Smokes or AFCI's is negligent disregard for duty of care, and fails to protect owner builders from themselves.
          Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by brycenesbitt View Post
            Once I narrowed it to the GFCI, I pulled it, and used an old appliance cord to make a little
            ever-so-safe test rig:


            [ATTACH=CONFIG]23034[/ATTACH]
            Isn't that what's known as a "Little Jiffy Fuse Blower?"

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by ramsy View Post
              1) Hal is asking if AFCI tripped with plain old 3-prong receptacle instead of a GFCI.
              Actually I didn't but that is a good question. I assumed it did.

              -Hal

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by ramsy View Post
                Most AFCI's that I install are for existing wiring, new outlets, & old work. My clients are educated why its in there best interest that no legal cause exists for property insurance to void claims, including checking the smokes & batteries.

                Many remodel contractors on this forum openly refuse to install AFCI's, subjecting their clients to denial of claims by insurance investigators.

                Granted owner-builder remodels are rarely inspected, and its not enforced, but I believe refusing required Smokes or AFCI's is negligent disregard for duty of care, and fails to protect owner builders from themselves.
                DON'T lump AFCIs together with smokes! Smoke and CO detectors along with sprinklers are proven lifesavers. Fire marshals, fire inspectors and building inspectors will issue a violation if they find that there are no smokes or that they are inoperative and not maintained.

                In the absence of a permit and an original electrical inspection there is nobody that goes around looking for AFCIs. I have never heard of an insurance company denying a claim because there were no AFCIs installed. Trying to prove that an AFCI would have saved a life would be like trying to prove that Bigfoot exists and they know it.

                Maybe in the Peoples Republic of California but nowhere else.

                -Hal

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                  DON'T lump AFCIs together with smokes! Smoke and CO detectors along with sprinklers are proven lifesavers. Fire marshals, fire inspectors and building inspectors will issue a violation if they find that there are no smokes or that they are inoperative and not maintained.

                  In the absence of a permit and an original electrical inspection there is nobody that goes around looking for AFCIs. I have never heard of an insurance company denying a claim because there were no AFCIs installed. Trying to prove that an AFCI would have saved a life would be like trying to prove that Bigfoot exists and they know it.

                  Maybe in the Peoples Republic of California but nowhere else.

                  -Hal


                  I think the deafening silence from the insurance industry is very telling. I'm pretty sure the electrical manufacturers don't want the spot light on their products and are quite happy for no other behemoth industry to put any kind of pressure on them.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    A major legal battle over it would create the litmus test that finally puts this debacle to rest.

                    -Hal

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                      [COLOR=#333333]1) Hal is asking if AFCI tripped with plain old 3-prong receptacle instead of a GFCI.
                      [/COLOR]Actually I didn't but that is a good question. I assumed it did.
                      -Hal
                      I went back and did the test.
                      Hair dryer plugged directly into plain old 3 prong. No trip.
                      Now I plug the dryer into the old GFCI, and old GFCI into the plain old 3 prong. It worked for 20 seconds, then I gave the GFCI a slight shake and it tripped. Next trial no shake required, it tripped right away.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                        A major legal battle over it would create the litmus test that finally puts this debacle to rest.
                        -Hal
                        Michigan could provide a natural data set: if contractors don't install AFCI's, then the supposed fire benefit should show up
                        in the data after a few years.

                        One could compare fire rates changes in countries that adopted AFCI regulations spaced some years apart.

                        Looks like Canada has: https://www.electrofed.com/products/afci/

                        Comment


                          #27
                          The Risks are Real!
                          Arc-faults are the cause of a significant number of electrical fires in homes. In fact, an estimated 1,500 fires caused by electrical loss(1) were reported in Ontario over the past five years, resulting in an average of six fatalities per year
                          Then you read the footnote:

                          (1) involved some type of electrical failure or malfunction as a factor contributing to ignition.
                          Show from that data the number of:

                          A) Fires caused by arc faults
                          B) Deaths caused by fires caused by arc faults
                          C) Number of those homes that had electrical fires that had AFCIs installed.
                          D) Number of fires prevented by AFCIs.

                          This is all BS data that manufacturers use to convince the public that AFCIs are needed. Most people are too stupid to know any better.
                          Keep in mind also that it's common to blame fires on electrical when no other reason can easily be found.

                          -Hal

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                            DON'T lump AFCIs together with smokes!
                            Contractors that complete projects with extension-cord wiring, missing Smokes, or improper fuses, usually can’t figure out AFCI’s among other things, and refuse to acknowledge any violation, much less how it becomes apparent to claims adjustors.

                            One of my pensioner clients was cancelled by phone, over a water damage claim, and no other insurance carrier would sell a new policy. They had to move into an association-insured condo.

                            Other clients employed with insurance carriers are familiar with scripted procedures, and Artificial Intelligence systems, used to screen claims for cause.

                            No Fire Marshal or inspector report was needed to deny the claim by phone, and challenging bad-faith insurance involves costly litigation, or settlement out of court.

                            Originally posted by hbiss View Post
                            Maybe in the Peoples Republic of California but nowhere else. -Hal
                            With no licensing standard between States, no electrical certification required for any general contractor, laborer, or owner builder doing electrical, and licensing regulators stripped of enforcement budgets, the competitive bid process that demands skills for GFCI, and AFCI devices, is perhaps the only reliable screen against incompetent contractors who are incorrigible about voiding property-insurance policy.
                            Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by brycenesbitt View Post
                              I went back and did the test.
                              Hair dryer plugged directly into plain old 3 prong. No trip.
                              Now I plug the dryer into the old GFCI, and old GFCI into the plain old 3 prong. It worked for 20 seconds, then I gave the GFCI a slight shake and it tripped. Next trial no shake required, it tripped right away.
                              So is your problem the AFCI trips when said GFCI is in the circuit but doesn't trip with same load and no GFCI? Sorry, but this is first post that gave me that idea, even though it may be what you have been trying to get at from the beginning.
                              I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by ramsy View Post
                                Contractors that complete projects with extension-cord wiring, missing Smokes, or improper fuses, usually can’t figure out AFCI’s among other things, and refuse to acknowledge any violation, much less how it becomes apparent to claims adjustors... With no licensing standard between States, no electrical certification required for any general contractor, laborer, or owner builder doing electrical, and licensing regulators stripped of enforcement budgets, the competitive bid process that demands skills for GFCI, and AFCI devices, is perhaps the only reliable screen against incompetent contractors ...
                                As far as I know California is the only state that allows GCs to do the electrical work on their projects. So don't complain, move.

                                One of my pensioner clients was cancelled by phone, over a water damage claim, and no other insurance carrier would sell a new policy. They had to move into an association-insured condo. ...Other clients employed with insurance carriers are familiar with scripted procedures, and Artificial Intelligence systems, used to screen claims for cause. ...No Fire Marshal or inspector report was needed to deny the claim by phone, and challenging bad-faith insurance involves costly litigation, or settlement out of court.
                                First off, in my opinion insurance companies are the scum of the earth and the comments from those insurance company employees only goes to prove that. As to your customer, most homeowner policies (at least here) exclude water damage unless maybe from a leaky roof. Then there are storm and flood exclusions. So you don't know the whole story. What did he do, just walk away from it? My take is that the damage wasn't covered and he didn't have the money to do the repairs. So he sold it for what he could get and moved on.

                                In most coastal areas here there are properties that are basically uninsurable. If a storm damages them they can't be rebuilt.

                                If you have a mortgage you can bet if a claim was denied in bad-faith the bank has lawyers that will go after the insurance company to protect their interest. That guy didn't have a mortgage, did he?

                                Absent a mortgage, you don't need insurance and there are many people who are comfortable without it. They probably figure what are the odds of a total loss in their case and putting money aside every month to cover any damages is better than giving it to some insurance company who won't pay out.

                                -Hal
                                Last edited by hbiss; 06-05-19, 12:59 PM.

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