AFCI hates GFCI!

[hbiss]

1) Hal is asking if AFCI tripped with plain old 3-prong receptacle instead of a GFCI.

Actually I didn't but that is a good question. I assumed it did.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

Most AFCI's that I install are for existing wiring, new outlets, & old work. My clients are educated why its in there best interest that no legal cause exists for property insurance to void claims, including checking the smokes & batteries.

Many remodel contractors on this forum openly refuse to install AFCI's, subjecting their clients to denial of claims by insurance investigators.

Granted owner-builder remodels are rarely inspected, and its not enforced, but I believe refusing required Smokes or AFCI's is negligent disregard for duty of care, and fails to protect owner builders from themselves.

DON'T lump AFCIs together with smokes! Smoke and CO detectors along with sprinklers are proven lifesavers. Fire marshals, fire inspectors and building inspectors will issue a violation if they find that there are no smokes or that they are inoperative and not maintained.

In the absence of a permit and an original electrical inspection there is nobody that goes around looking for AFCIs. I have never heard of an insurance company denying a claim because there were no AFCIs installed. Trying to prove that an AFCI would have saved a life would be like trying to prove that Bigfoot exists and they know it.

Maybe in the Peoples Republic of California but nowhere else.:happyyes:

-Hal

 

[peter d]

DON'T lump AFCIs together with smokes! Smoke and CO detectors along with sprinklers are proven lifesavers. Fire marshals, fire inspectors and building inspectors will issue a violation if they find that there are no smokes or that they are inoperative and not maintained.

In the absence of a permit and an original electrical inspection there is nobody that goes around looking for AFCIs. I have never heard of an insurance company denying a claim because there were no AFCIs installed. Trying to prove that an AFCI would have saved a life would be like trying to prove that Bigfoot exists and they know it.

Maybe in the Peoples Republic of California but nowhere else.:happyyes:

-Hal

:thumbsup::thumbsup::happyyes:

I think the deafening silence from the insurance industry is very telling. I'm pretty sure the electrical manufacturers don't want the spot light on their products and are quite happy for no other behemoth industry to put any kind of pressure on them.

 

[hbiss]

A major legal battle over it would create the litmus test that finally puts this debacle to rest.

-Hal

 

[brycenesbitt]

1) Hal is asking if AFCI tripped with plain old 3-prong receptacle instead of a GFCI.
Actually I didn't but that is a good question. I assumed it did.
-Hal

I went back and did the test.
Hair dryer plugged directly into plain old 3 prong. No trip.
Now I plug the dryer into the old GFCI, and old GFCI into the plain old 3 prong. It worked for 20 seconds, then I gave the GFCI a slight shake and it tripped. Next trial no shake required, it tripped right away.

 

[brycenesbitt]

A major legal battle over it would create the litmus test that finally puts this debacle to rest.
-Hal

Michigan could provide a natural data set: if contractors don't install AFCI's, then the supposed fire benefit should show up
in the data after a few years.

One could compare fire rates changes in countries that adopted AFCI regulations spaced some years apart.

Looks like Canada has: https://www.electrofed.com/products/afci/

 

[hbiss]

The Risks are Real!
Arc-faults are the cause of a significant number of electrical fires in homes. In fact, an estimated 1,500 fires caused by electrical loss(1) were reported in Ontario over the past five years, resulting in an average of six fatalities per year

Then you read the footnote:

(1) involved some type of electrical failure or malfunction as a factor contributing to ignition.

Show from that data the number of:

A) Fires caused by arc faults
B) Deaths caused by fires caused by arc faults
C) Number of those homes that had electrical fires that had AFCIs installed.
D) Number of fires prevented by AFCIs.

This is all BS data that manufacturers use to convince the public that AFCIs are needed. Most people are too stupid to know any better.
Keep in mind also that it's common to blame fires on electrical when no other reason can easily be found.

-Hal

 

[ramsy]

DON'T lump AFCIs together with smokes!

Contractors that complete projects with extension-cord wiring, missing Smokes, or improper fuses, usually can’t figure out AFCI’s among other things, and refuse to acknowledge any violation, much less how it becomes apparent to claims adjustors.

One of my pensioner clients was cancelled by phone, over a water damage claim, and no other insurance carrier would sell a new policy. They had to move into an association-insured condo.

Other clients employed with insurance carriers are familiar with scripted procedures, and Artificial Intelligence systems, used to screen claims for cause.

No Fire Marshal or inspector report was needed to deny the claim by phone, and challenging bad-faith insurance involves costly litigation, or settlement out of court.

Maybe in the Peoples Republic of California but nowhere else.:happyyes: -Hal

With no licensing standard between States, no electrical certification required for any general contractor, laborer, or owner builder doing electrical, and licensing regulators stripped of enforcement budgets, the competitive bid process that demands skills for GFCI, and AFCI devices, is perhaps the only reliable screen against incompetent contractors who are incorrigible about voiding property-insurance policy.

 

[kwired]

I went back and did the test.
Hair dryer plugged directly into plain old 3 prong. No trip.
Now I plug the dryer into the old GFCI, and old GFCI into the plain old 3 prong. It worked for 20 seconds, then I gave the GFCI a slight shake and it tripped. Next trial no shake required, it tripped right away.

So is your problem the AFCI trips when said GFCI is in the circuit but doesn't trip with same load and no GFCI? Sorry, but this is first post that gave me that idea, even though it may be what you have been trying to get at from the beginning.

 

[hbiss]

Contractors that complete projects with extension-cord wiring, missing Smokes, or improper fuses, usually can’t figure out AFCI’s among other things, and refuse to acknowledge any violation, much less how it becomes apparent to claims adjustors... With no licensing standard between States, no electrical certification required for any general contractor, laborer, or owner builder doing electrical, and licensing regulators stripped of enforcement budgets, the competitive bid process that demands skills for GFCI, and AFCI devices, is perhaps the only reliable screen against incompetent contractors ...

As far as I know California is the only state that allows GCs to do the electrical work on their projects. So don't complain, move.

One of my pensioner clients was cancelled by phone, over a water damage claim, and no other insurance carrier would sell a new policy. They had to move into an association-insured condo. ...Other clients employed with insurance carriers are familiar with scripted procedures, and Artificial Intelligence systems, used to screen claims for cause. ...No Fire Marshal or inspector report was needed to deny the claim by phone, and challenging bad-faith insurance involves costly litigation, or settlement out of court.

First off, in my opinion insurance companies are the scum of the earth and the comments from those insurance company employees only goes to prove that. As to your customer, most homeowner policies (at least here) exclude water damage unless maybe from a leaky roof. Then there are storm and flood exclusions. So you don't know the whole story. What did he do, just walk away from it? My take is that the damage wasn't covered and he didn't have the money to do the repairs. So he sold it for what he could get and moved on.

In most coastal areas here there are properties that are basically uninsurable. If a storm damages them they can't be rebuilt.

If you have a mortgage you can bet if a claim was denied in bad-faith the bank has lawyers that will go after the insurance company to protect their interest. That guy didn't have a mortgage, did he?

Absent a mortgage, you don't need insurance and there are many people who are comfortable without it. They probably figure what are the odds of a total loss in their case and putting money aside every month to cover any damages is better than giving it to some insurance company who won't pay out.

-Hal

 

[brycenesbitt]

So is your problem the AFCI trips when said GFCI is in the circuit but doesn't trip with same load and no GFCI? Sorry, but this is first post that gave me that idea, even though it may be what you have been trying to get at from the beginning.

Yes that's correct.
And what I was trying to say from the start.

I now have the bad GFCI jacked into a old appliance cord, and can move it from outlet to outlet.
All it takes is a small mechanical shake of the GFCI to trip the AFCI. I suspect that the laundry machine was supplying that shake, in the original failure case.
I'm considering sending the GFCI to Leviton for analysis, if anyone at Leviton caress.

 

[kwired]

Yes that's correct.
And what I was trying to say from the start.

I now have the bad GFCI jacked into a old appliance cord, and can move it from outlet to outlet.
All it takes is a small mechanical shake of the GFCI to trip the AFCI. I suspect that the laundry machine was supplying that shake, in the original failure case.
I'm considering sending the GFCI to Leviton for analysis, if anyone at Leviton caress.

Unless a replacement does same thing, just consider it defective or that something has failed. Send it in if you want to I guess.

 

[ramsy]

..In most coastal areas here there are properties that are basically uninsurable. If a storm damages them they can't be rebuilt..

After paying premiums for 20 years over 350,000 homeowner policies are being dropped In and around Paradise California. No refund of premiums.
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/0...p-insurance-companies-drop-long-time-clients/

 

[norcal]

After paying premiums for 20 years over 350,000 homeowner policies are being dropped In and around Paradise California. No refund of premiums.
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/0...p-insurance-companies-drop-long-time-clients/

The dropped policies are not just Paradise, Butte County, which the town of Paradise is in does not even have 350.000 residents, insurance companies are dropping coverage all over the state in fire prone areas, it is proving what I thought, that insurance was going to be the problem in rebuilding Paradise, no insurance,= no mortgage.

 

[PaulMmn]

Once I narrowed it to the GFCI, I pulled it, and used an old appliance cord to make a little
ever-so-safe test rig:

A strip of electrical tape around the screw terminals will make your test rig ever-so-much-safer! :roll:

 

[ramsy]

..As to your customer, most homeowner policies (at least here) exclude water damage unless maybe from a leaky roof. Then there are storm and flood exclusions. ..My take is that the damage wasn't covered..

Yes. Minor plumbing leak from upstairs bath, which damaged down stairs drywall over time.
Not expensive repair, no bank mortgage remained, but still surprised insurance drops entire policy for 90yr old owner, rather than deny the claim.

..Absent a mortgage, you don't need insurance and there are many people who are comfortable without it. They probably figure what are the odds of a total loss in their case and putting money aside every month to cover any damages is better than giving it to some insurance company who won't pay out.

Agree, property owners need better protection than detrimental reliance on property insurance.

 

[ramsy]

When construction defect or contractor negligence is not covered by property insurance that deny claims, or drop policies.

Insurance claims denied for defect with smoke detectors need no proof of over-fused wires, or improper fuses. If States adopt code, licensing, or listing requirement, the efficacy of adopted devices or law is irrelevant to voiding claims.

If missing any required licensing, product listing, smoke, or A/GFCI device, technically violates the law adopted by property-insurance policy, it won’t matter who installed it, or who passed the inspection.

Insurance only needs evidence of the violation to void policy, and property owners provide that evidence when claims are screened by phone recordings. After insurance settlement, regardless of re-building costs, any existing mortgage balance is still due regardless of property losses.

Just like a Workmans Comp. certificate of insured may avoid losing property to helper-injury claims, I believe demanding a General Liability policy avoids a total loss if it covers contractor Negligence. My GL policy does not.

If the defect or negligence is covered, the common Certificate of Additionally Insured from a current GL policy allows victims to file claims any time, regardless of contractors that disappear, go out of business, change names, and/or license numbers.

 

[mopowr steve]

Most likely the contacts within your old GFI are pitted or not making solid contact.

 

[ptonsparky]

Shaking of the old GFCI trips the AFCI.
You can hear it rattle when shook.
A new GFCI solved the problem, but AFCIs are to blame? :blink:

 

[mopowr steve]

Shaking of the old GFCI trips the AFCI.
You can hear it rattle when shook.
A new GFCI solved the problem, but AFCIs are to blame? :blink:

Don’t let it go to there heads. Afci’s still suck.