AFCI/GFCI Breaker Trip

[growler]

What brand breaker?

I believe at one time you said you had Sq D Homeline. To diagnose one of those you reset the breaker, hold the breaker on, push the test button, if it trips in a micro second it's a ground fault, if it takes a little bit more time it's tripping on arc function.

Siemans has an trip window. GE has nothing.

I am doubtful of the self diagnosis feature and I am doubtful of AFCI technology so my method is to swap the breaker with a single purpose GFCI. If the breaker holds it's a nuisance trip. I have found that AFCIs will nuisance trip randomly with loads that have electronic components and your five year old fridge most certainly has those.

I think you need to reread the instructions on how to use the self diagnostics feature of a square D arc fault breaker.

I just looked it up and it says to turn the breaker off, hold the push to test button and turn the breaker on.
Immediate trip....ground fault
2 second trip.......arc fault
5 second trip.....short or thermal overload.

 

[LarryFine]

I just looked it up and it says to turn the breaker off, hold the push to test button and turn the breaker on.

Do you hold the button throughout the five second test time?

 

[growler]

A recent kitchen remodel included replacing a half dozen or so breakers with combination AFCI/GFCI breakers. That was four months ago. Last week one of them tripped. It powers the fridge, and I don’t know if it powers any other loads. Later the same day, it tripped again. It has not tripped since.

It's really important to know if there is anything else on that circuit. If this is a dedicated refrigerator circuit it makes things a little easier.

It wouldn't hurt to call they electrician just to see if he remembers what all is on that circuit. If there are other receptacle you could document what else is being used if it trips again.

 

[growler]

I just looked it up and it says to turn the breaker off, hold the push to test button and turn the breaker on.

Do you hold the button throughout the five second test time?

Edit: They have a video and it does show the test button being held down.

(who would have thunk it ? )

 

[Jon456]

It is an arc, but it is typically on secondary side of a transformer and not an arc occurring in the actual supply circuit to the appliance.

Yes, that's why I wrote that it "looks" like an arc. The secondary side actually IS an arc. But the arc is not on the primary side. However, it's possible (probable?) that noise from the arc generator is being back-fed into the primary circuit that "looks" like an arc to the AFCI.

The appliance manufacturer has an economic incentive to make a stove/oven that works well at the most competitive price. That means the arc generator must reliably and consistently ignite the pilot. And that's all. I bet the design specs don't include expensive filtering on the arc generator circuit to prevent noise from triggering fickle AFCI's.

 

[hbiss]

And now are we to expect manufacturers to design their products around shoddy AFCIs?

-Hal

 

[kwired]

And now are we to expect manufacturers to design their products around shoddy AFCIs?

-Hal

Not really what he said.

But is a problem.

 

[ptonsparky]

And now are we to expect manufacturers to design their products around shoddy AFCIs?

-Hal

That has been the procedure since day one. My wife’s new vacuum doesn’t trip the AFCIs.

 

[JDB3]

Along with the same line: House completed & moved into August of last year with Homeline dual function breakers. Dishwasher tripping when going into heat cycle (on its own circuit). Put it on with disposal circuit - been working fine.
Kitchen island receptacles (where the disposal & dishwasher are) tripping. Only thing being plugged in (according to homeowners) LED night light that comes on automatic. Wiring in boxes looked fine. Turned breaker back on & plug tested in, everything working. A few days latter, YEP, tripped again! Pulling the rest of my hair out :?

 

[hbiss]

That has been the procedure since day one. My wife’s new vacuum doesn’t trip the AFCIs.

So can you say for sure that the vacuum manufacturer modified their design or did the AFCI manufacturer make their AFCI less sensitive?

Because the AFCI manufacturers are unable to come up with a way to reliably discriminate between "friendly" and "hostile" arc signatures, I have a feeling that they just remove features (like GFI) and reduce sensitivity to combat the growing complaints AFCIs get for nuisance tripping.

They know darn well that nobody will complain about them not working- except us.

-Hal

 

[JDB3]

That has been the procedure since day one. My wife’s new vacuum doesn’t trip the AFCIs.

At first, the Homeline AFCI breakers that I used, came with instructions on how to use "certain" vacuum cleaners that would trip the breaker. One house, just the breaker for 1 of the bedrooms would trip with the vacuum cleaner, rest of them were fine!

 

[oldsparky52]

Do you guys ever get a new residential building to go a year w/out a tripped AFCI?

 

[sameguy]

Would be great to see how many fires, lives, have been saved due to afci against none.
My guess 6.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Question: Is there any way to tell, from looking at the tripped breaker, whether it tripped because of an arc or because of a ground fault?

Hi Charlie,

Did you have success getting the breaker to report the type of the last trip?

 

[Jon456]

Would be great to see how many fires, lives, have been saved due to afci against none.

The problem with such a statistic is that it relies on the evidence of absence. Is it even possible to prove that an AFCI has ever saved any houses or any lives?

 

[charlie b]

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. I apologize for not being able to chime in for a while - I've been a bit busy at work and at home.

My panel is a Square D Homeline. The new combination breakers are also Square D. I could not read any model number or other identifier on the visible part of the breaker. I did not take off the panel cover to get a better look.

"Two trips on the same day and none since" remains the score card.

I do not have the option of replacing the kitchen countertop outlets with GFCI types, and then putting standard breakers in place of the combination breakers. That is because there are no receptacle outlets in the backsplash! Instead, at my wife's request, the electrician who did our kitchen remodel installed listed power strips in the corners where the upper cabinets meet the backsplash. They are hard-wired, and of various lengths to match the width of the cabinets.

Here is the brand: https://www.hardwareresources.com/light-power/power-strips.html#view/TR18-2WD-P-WT

 

[al hildenbrand]

My panel is a Square D Homeline. The new combination breakers are also Square D.

(From OP) . . . included replacing a half dozen or so breakers with combination AFCI/GFCI breakers

I've got two links for you. Both are to the PDF Installation Bulletin for

1.) The Sq D HOM combination-type AFCI CAFCI

2.) The Sq D HOM dual function AFCI / GFCI Dual Function

In either PDF, the breaker trouble shooting sequence is at the bottom of Page Three.

You can query the breaker with the dead front cover in place. No tools required.

Note that the breaker holds its memory about the last trip for 27 days of continuous operation before it resets to blank.

 

[Jon456]

I do not have the option of replacing the kitchen countertop outlets with GFCI types, and then putting standard breakers in place of the combination breakers. That is because there are no receptacle outlets in the backsplash! Instead, at my wife's request, the electrician who did our kitchen remodel installed listed power strips in the corners where the upper cabinets meet the backsplash. They are hard-wired, and of various lengths to match the width of the cabinets.

You could add one or more dead-front GFCI's to your kitchen which then feed the power strips. Not only would this eliminate the AFCI issue, but it would allow you to test and reset the GFCI's without a "trip" to the circuit breaker panel.

 

[JDB3]

Do you guys ever get a new residential building to go a year w/out a tripped AFCI?

Yes sir, most of them. I wire the circuits so that if a breaker should trip, it would be easy to locate. Each bedroom on its own circuit or circuits (one town will just allow 10 openings per circuit).

 

[JDB3]

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. I apologize for not being able to chime in for a while - I've been a bit busy at work and at home.

My panel is a Square D Homeline. The new combination breakers are also Square D. I could not read any model number or other identifier on the visible part of the breaker. I did not take off the panel cover to get a better look.

"Two trips on the same day and none since" remains the score card.

I do not have the option of replacing the kitchen countertop outlets with GFCI types, and then putting standard breakers in place of the combination breakers. That is because there are no receptacle outlets in the backsplash! Instead, at my wife's request, the electrician who did our kitchen remodel installed listed power strips in the corners where the upper cabinets meet the backsplash. They are hard-wired, and of various lengths to match the width of the cabinets.

Here is the brand: https://www.hardwareresources.com/light-power/power-strips.html#view/TR18-2WD-P-WT

I did a house like that, because the receptacles would mess up their (her) tile backsplash pattern. I put a GFCI dead front in the pantry to feed the strips. I did convince her to let me put a backsplash receptacle behind her corner kitchen sink (more than the allowed distance from sink to wall). I told her that she could put a plant in front of it :lol: