AFCI/GFCI Breaker Trip

[charlie b]

NOTE: This is not a DIY post. It’s a technical question concerning how a breaker works.

A recent kitchen remodel included replacing a half dozen or so breakers with combination AFCI/GFCI breakers. That was four months ago. Last week one of them tripped. It powers the fridge, and I don’t know if it powers any other loads. Later the same day, it tripped again. It has not tripped since.

Question: Is there any way to tell, from looking at the tripped breaker, whether it tripped because of an arc or because of a ground fault?

The fridge is only about five years old, and I would doubt it could be the cause. The remodel project took all kitchen walls and the ceiling down to studs, and included a 100% rewire of all kitchen circuits. So I would also doubt that bad wiring could be the cause.

If this breaker trips again, I would like to get an idea of what I am dealing with, before I call the electrician who did the remodel. He lives over an hour from my house, and I don’t look forward to his trip charge. I should like to think we're still under warrantee. But this might not be related to the remodel, other than the new breaker type.

 

[ActionDave]

What brand breaker?

I believe at one time you said you had Sq D Homeline. To diagnose one of those you reset the breaker, hold the breaker on, push the test button, if it trips in a micro second it's a ground fault, if it takes a little bit more time it's tripping on arc function.

Siemans has an trip window. GE has nothing.

I am doubtful of the self diagnosis feature and I am doubtful of AFCI technology so my method is to swap the breaker with a single purpose GFCI. If the breaker holds it's a nuisance trip. I have found that AFCIs will nuisance trip randomly with loads that have electronic components and your five year old fridge most certainly has those.

 

[Jon456]

I was going to suggest ripping out those AFCI/GFCI breakers for the kitchen and replacing them with GFCI outlets (I'd install one with an audible alarm for the refrigerator, although I believe GFCI are still not required for a dedicated refrigerator outlet in a residential kitchen).

I didn't realize that AFCI devices are now required in kitchens (as of the 2014 code cycle). WTH!?! Those industry lobbyists are working overtime. :rant:

 

[mopowr steve]

I was going to suggest ripping out those AFCI/GFCI breakers for the kitchen and replacing them with GFCI outlets (I'd install one with an audible alarm for the refrigerator, although I believe GFCI are still not required for a dedicated refrigerator outlet in a residential kitchen).

I didn't realize that AFCI devices are now required in kitchens (as of the 2014 code cycle). WTH!?! Those industry lobbyists are working overtime. :rant:

gfci would be required if the refrigerator receptacle outlet is with in 6’ of sink regardless if it’s dedicated or not.

 

[Jon456]

gfci would be required if the refrigerator receptacle outlet is with in 6’ of sink regardless if it’s dedicated or not.

I believe that is only true if the outlet is "accessible" (like over the countertop next to the refrigerator). I do not think an outlet located behind the refrigerator is considered "accessible."

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

For what it's worth.
Two weeks ago I was called to troubleshoot a circuit that was in a 3 year old kitchen. It feed a viking free standing gas stove/ oven and a moderately sized exhaust hood.
1). It was on a dual function Siemens cb.120/240v single phase service.
2). It tripped on AFCI.
3). It tripped 30 sec to 1min after oven was set to bake (every time).
4). Removed hood from circuit with the same outcome.
5). Installed brand new AFCI only cb (because that was all that is required, not within 6' of sink).still tripped
I was ready to tell him to call the appliance repair man.
6). Used an extension cord and plugged into a counter top circuit (it didn't trip, and was on opposite "phase".
7). I swapped to the CB to the opposite phase ( it didn't trip either).
Nothing unusual about the service, balanced loads, equal voltage on both "phases", everything tight.
But that seemed to work (for now) go figure..

 

[oldsparky52]

For what it's worth.
Two weeks ago I was called to troubleshoot a circuit that was in a 3 year old kitchen. It feed a viking free standing gas stove/ oven and a moderately sized exhaust hood.
1). It was on a dual function Siemens cb.120/240v single phase service.
2). It tripped on AFCI.
3). It tripped 30 sec to 1min after oven was set to bake (every time).
4). Removed hood from circuit with the same outcome.
5). Installed brand new AFCI only cb (because that was all that is required, not within 6' of sink).still tripped
I was ready to tell him to call the appliance repair man.
6). Used an extension cord and plugged into a counter top circuit (it didn't trip, and was on opposite "phase".
7). I swapped to the CB to the opposite phase ( it didn't trip either).
Nothing unusual about the service, balanced loads, equal voltage on both "phases", everything tight.
But that seemed to work (for now) go figure..

That was very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

Were there other AFCI's on the phase that seemed to be causing the tripping? That really is wild.

 

[ptonsparky]

For what it's worth.
Two weeks ago I was called to troubleshoot a circuit that was in a 3 year old kitchen. It feed a viking free standing gas stove/ oven and a moderately sized exhaust hood.
1). It was on a dual function Siemens cb.120/240v single phase service.
2). It tripped on AFCI.
3). It tripped 30 sec to 1min after oven was set to bake (every time).
4). Removed hood from circuit with the same outcome.
5). Installed brand new AFCI only cb (because that was all that is required, not within 6' of sink).still tripped
I was ready to tell him to call the appliance repair man.
6). Used an extension cord and plugged into a counter top circuit (it didn't trip, and was on opposite "phase".
7). I swapped to the CB to the opposite phase ( it didn't trip either).
Nothing unusual about the service, balanced loads, equal voltage on both "phases", everything tight.
But that seemed to work (for now) go figure..

Wow! Magic! That’s how they work anyway so, what the heck.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

That was very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

Were there other AFCI's on the phase that seemed to be causing the tripping? That really is wild.

Talk about posting too soon>
I just now received a call from that same customer.... the breaker tripped.
I told him to contact the appliance guy. Now go figure:slaphead:

I will check into the where the other AFCI's are located in the panel when I go back there.

 

[oldsparky52]

Talk about posting too soon>
I just now received a call from that same customer.... the breaker tripped.
I told him to contact the appliance guy. Now go figure:slaphead:

I will check into the where the other AFCI's are located in the panel when I go back there.

So what do you guys do with these types of calls? What happens if the equipment guy says it's not their problem? Or does that not happen much?

 

[ptonsparky]

Talk about posting too soon>
I just now received a call from that same customer.... the breaker tripped.
I told him to contact the appliance guy. Now go figure:slaphead:

I will check into the where the other AFCI's are located in the panel when I go back there.

Wave your other wand over it.

 

[readydave8]

So what do you guys do with these types of calls?

I try to explain AFCI nuisance tripping to customer

They usually think I'm lying

Rarely a good final outcome

 

[oldsparky52]

I try to explain AFCI nuisance tripping to customer

They usually think I'm lying

Rarely a good final outcome

Well, at least all the electricians are telling the same lie,

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I try to explain AFCI nuisance tripping to customer:thumbsup:

They usually think I'm lying (usually not, if they do, I tell them to Goggle "AFCI Nuisance trips"

Rarely a good final outcome

I have many more wins than loses.. but the loses hurt more..

 

[LarryFine]

I try to explain AFCI nuisance tripping to customer

They usually think I'm lying

Rarely a good final outcome

I explain what trips a device, that either it's tripping because it should and the problem is either the load or something is fooling it, or it's tripping because it's bad, and we try substitution.

 

[Jon456]

Talk about posting too soon>
I just now received a call from that same customer.... the breaker tripped.
I told him to contact the appliance guy. Now go figure:slaphead:

I will check into the where the other AFCI's are located in the panel when I go back there.

Modern gas stoves/ovens often use a spark generator to light the pilot. (The other method for lighting the pilot is a glow plug. Modern appliances do not keep a pilot lit 24/7.) I suspect that a spark generator produces noise on the supply line that "looks" like an arc.

 

[oldsparky52]

Modern gas stoves/ovens often use a spark generator to light the pilot. (The other method for lighting the pilot is a glow plug. Modern appliances do not keep a pilot lit 24/7.) I suspect that a spark generator produces noise on the supply line that "looks" like an arc.

EXCELLENT!!

"Looks" like an arc? Maybe because it is an arc? This is a great observation Jon that everyone doing residential work should keep in the back of their mind.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

EXCELLENT!!

"Looks" like an arc? Maybe because it is an arc? This is a great observation Jon that everyone doing residential work should keep in the back of their mind.

Yes it is!
I had read about that in an earlier post.
That was where I was leaning towards on my point #5.
I wrote it hoping it would be helpful to Charlie or anyone else.
Now the challenge is to find out if it truly is an appliance issue.

 

[ptonsparky]

Yes it is!
I had read about that in an earlier post.
That was where I was leaning towards on my point #5.
I wrote it hoping it would be helpful to Charlie or anyone else.
Now the challenge is to find out if it truly is an appliance issue.

Betting dollars to doughnuts, the range is working as it was designed.

 

[kwired]

EXCELLENT!!

"Looks" like an arc? Maybe because it is an arc? This is a great observation Jon that everyone doing residential work should keep in the back of their mind.

Betting dollars to doughnuts, the range is working as it was designed.

It is an arc, but it is typically on secondary side of a transformer and not an arc occurring in the actual supply circuit to the appliance.

Inductive kickback, even from something on the supply side of the AFCI or even a GFCI sometimes causes troubles also. In those cases nothing is wrong with the protected circuit yet it still trips and us installers are the ones getting a bad name and eating costs trying to make clients happy.