Looking for a crimper

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Dansos

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Hey guys I wanted some of your input on what kind of crimpers you are using for 4/0 - 350 MCM. We have been doing a lot more work with larger wire size and we have always used either mechanical splices (extra time insulating then) and/or Ilsco insulated taps ($$$$).

So we are looking to invest in a crimper. What type should I be looking for?????
Battery operated or handheld really doesn’t matter to me but I want something that is going to last and that will deliver good results every time.
 
Can I piggy back in this thread? I have always been super confused by crimp systems. Are these color codes and dies standardized across brands or do you have to stuck with one brands dies and lugs?

What about the dieless systems such as those adjustable indent ones? Seems like you can use that crimper with nearly anything, but not sure how "correct" it is.

I just bought Milwaukee's "linesman" crimper
https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-49-16-2601-Linemans-Crimper-Fixed/dp/B019AC0MOM

It was only like $175 (not sure why that amazon price is more than double that) plus another $65 for the W dies. It uses the same dies for #4 thru 350 for one series of lugs ( Blackburn was it?). Not sure what other dies you can get or what else you can crimp with it. Just did this with it.
 

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If you're looking to invest in the future then buy a battery operated crimper. We use Burndy. If you have a lot of crimps they'll pay for themselves in labor cost savings.
 
Also for you guys who generally crimp stuff: Are you ordering equipment without mechanical lugs or do you take the lugs off and use crimps?

The main reason I just bought that manual crimper is the multi gang and class 320 sockets I get don't come with lugs, and i had several jobs in a row with these recently
 
We're lucky; we don't have to crimp meter terminals; the POCO does that.

We do land set-screw terminals, lay-ins, and stuff like that.
 
I've had both. We do 100% crimps on motor leads. I worked in mining for over 20 years. Now I work for a large motir shop doing up to 20,000 HP motors, starters, transformers, VFDs, and breakers. A lot of very large equipment. I know what works and what fails from personal experience. I've gone old school on connections for that very reason. I've used a lot of different crimpers and I have at least a couple on my truck at all times.

To begin with there is the hammer crimper. These are meant for battery terminals and they do work up to around 1/0 sizes. $30 or less. Its an indent crimper. Not great crimps but I used one in a mine with no failures for years. This is back when your alternative choice would be Greenlee hand crimpers. You just put the lug and wire in it on a hard flat surface and smack it three or four times with an engineers or drilling hammer. Very simple as long as you can isolate the cable outside the box and try to hold everything in place. No precision here.

The Chinese made Temco brand one on Amazon looks questionable but I've basically worn one out. They work very well. If you can't go battery I can't say enough good things about this one. The yellow box ones are metric, blue is AWG sized. There is a conversion chart in the Chinglish manual. Priced around $100 So every man can have one on their truck. Hard to beat the price. Greenlee and Current can eat their hearts out.

In the same price range you can get a hand indent crimper, but why? Honestly even if it says it goes to 350 don't bother for 4/0 or larger. It's just too much work and just bruises your hands. It's cheap and I was nervous about the Chinese tools but after having field experience for years now I feel better about them. Greenlee does make a long handled version but it's way over $100 which as I said is the one to beat.

Beyond this, the price is going to jump a lot. Into the thousands. So the issue is going to be that you're going to have to hunt around for a repair shop or a utility contractor unloading say an old ECCX Pro or Anderson's or else paying 2500-4000. EBay, Craigs list, good old social networking, and patience will reward you. You can realistically get a fairly top of the line tool and dies in under $2000 but it will take time. I bought mine with most of the stuff but it was missing several common dies (250, 350, 500) so I bought those to fill in gaps.

First up in the high end category is a hand crimper but dieless. There are two varieties. The first is an indent crimper but now it's a ratcheting/hydraulic one. Usually it is 1 or maybe 4 indents. Instead of working by position it relies on pressure and a lug slot that changes size as the indents move, too. The intent types work but really distort the lug. A lot more expensjve/rare is the one i think first patented by Andersen that makes a smooth hex crimp that looks identical to a died crimper result. I love these a lot. No dies to mess with, just pump and done with any size. The trouble is they are really expensive even on the used market. Not good for a huge amount of crimps. It took 3 guys wearing themselves out doing 96 lugs with 3-4 crimps each with 4/C 350 MCM on a huge 800 HP 480 V soft starter over 3-4 hours while I bent and landed all of it. Another consideration with hex vs. indent is that as you get up to 10 kv or higher the distorted edges are a serious corona issue. When we are already into filing off sharp edges, pencilling insulation edges, etc., do you really think an indent crimp is a good idea? Me either. If you never go above 600 V it's probably no problem but I do so quality beats cost for my work.

Then we get to motorized. If you can afford it, do it. Period. I can trivially do any crimp, any position, any amount, one man. With manual hydraulic I can squeeze down on the lug in awkward spots then one more squeeze while holding it carefully to keep the lug aligned, then jack the pressure up to fully crimp when it can't move anymore. Two men is much faster where one aligns and one pumps. On motorized crimp just squeeze and go. I have a 12 ton Gator ECCX Pro now. Just hold the lug and wire in one hand, squeeze the trigger with the other. So easy. You can also get dies to cut wire, rebar, and hard cable like ACSR,. and an adapter for knockouts. If it would strip and maybe bend too I'd be set. You can get a dieless motorized/hydraulic but those are single function tools. Greenlee is the one to beat if you can get one.

In terms of dies, U dies are universal but they are really, really expensive because they are 12 ton dies. Linemen use a bunch of odd dies for squeeze ons a9nd such. I'm not doing overhead line work so have no interest but I think a BG or O is almost a one size fits all die. The lower priced brand specific dies like the KC22s are the way to go and get you to 600 MCM copper. Since I have a 12 ton tool if I got a job with some insane size like 750 MCM I can still do it though if I just buy the U die adapters too. I haven't tried the Ridgid universal and it's intriguing but haven't seen anyone with one either.

Finally there are the fully hydraulic tools with a separate ($1000+) pump that go up to 100 tons for transmission lines. Can get them insulated for energized work, too. Very cool and very fast but even on EBay the cost is thousands. Definitely rental territory here at least with my crew right now. So I've never gone down this road.

In summary if money is not a problem and you want the ultimate in convenience and speed then going to a battery dieless hex style crimper with a separate battery cutter. But died is much cheaper even with the dies and in the Gators, you get a lot for what you pay for. In fact one day that $3,000 tool is going to let you down. Maybe even just need 1 or 2 crimps and someone ran the batteries dead on the last job. So buy a cheap Temco so you have a backup plan. Or start with the Temco and work up to bidding a job big enough to need the big tool which is actually what I did.

Two final positives for die crimpers in general and motorized in particular. The dies are marked so if you crimp 250 MCM it is stamped 250 MCM on the lug on some die sets. Also some of the motorized ones record the pressure data so you can generate crimp reports. Personally on a hex crimp you can tell if it was done right visually (gull wings or rounded corners?) and on some lug and wire combinations sometimes it is necessary to go up/down die sizes to get it to crimp properly on the crimpers, especially compacted or fine strand at MCM sizes where for instance a 500 MCM lug won't fit 535 DLO. By itself this is just fluff to those of us that do the work. But lots of engineers will happily write that stuff into bud specs. for quality control by looking for and/or requiring die stamps and maybe pressure reports. Either way it costs little to nothing to do it and either cuts out competition or becomes an easy extra option for pure profit. Your competitor might not bid when they have to spend thousands on a one time job, or gets lost in what the spec calls for, or they price themselves out of the market. But some engineers will eat up stuff like this especially if they've had failures.

I can also confirm that many customers see hydraulic or especially motorized crimpers, especially if they've done any of their own wiring, and they are instantly impressed. It sets you apart.

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electrofelon said:
Can I piggy back in this thread? I have always been super confused by crimp systems. Are these color codes and dies standardized across brands or do you have to stuck with one brands dies and lugs?

What about the dieless systems such as those adjustable indent ones? Seems like you can use that crimper with nearly anything, but not sure how "correct" it is.

I just bought Milwaukee's "linesman" crimper
https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-49-16-2601-Linemans-Crimper-Fixed/dp/B019AC0MOM

It was only like $175 (not sure why that amazon price is more than double that) plus another $65 for the W dies. It uses the same dies for #4 thru 350 for one series of lugs ( Blackburn was it?). Not sure what other dies you can get or what else you can crimp with it. Just did this with it.
Click to expand...
Everyone has their own color codes and die systems. Theoretically and from a Code point of view it matters. But the universal dieless and die systems gave huge charts for compatibility. A die system makes this somewhat critical because it works by physical dimensions. You squeeze down until the die fully closes. So the die has to be matched to the lug, theoretically.

The reality is that thus is not entirely true. There are roughly 4 different wire sizes all slightly different within the coarse and fine strand cable size groups. Take one look at the ICEA cable and wire design specs and you will find a huge bewildering variety of cable sizes that the phrase "4/0" is hiding just below the surface. This is where lugs and dies aren't so easy to use. This is why every die crimper says some adjustments may be necessary in the manual. So our neat and pretty cable size=lug size=die size system totally falls apart. When you crimp a test crimp look for signs of over or understanding, but also every time but often the die has to go up or down a size and sometimes the lug too. So much for "Code" crimps when the manuals tell you to make adjustments. In practice whether Code or not if you follow this they're pretty universal. If you don't fro quality control on your lugged connections sooner or later you will have a failure.

Dieless works on different principles. The crimper goes to 5,000 (6 ton) or 10,000 (12 ton) PSI before a pressure relief valve or motor system backs it off. It's all pressure and the head moves in a way where it closes mechanically synchronous so that it's symmetrical. Hydraulic die crimpers (hand or motorized) are actually also pressure crimpers. They compress to 5000 or 10000 PSI as a stopping point when die closure is a pretty sure thing. The first dieless crimpers were just single indent. One company which I think was Anderson patented the hex crimp which does almost the same crimp as a die but in a dieless crimper. In response Greenlee came out with one fixed and three movable indents to make the quad crimp as a sort of hybrid that got around the patent.

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Dansos said:
Hey guys I wanted some of your input on what kind of crimpers you are using for 4/0 - 350 MCM. We have been doing a lot more work with larger wire size and we have always used either mechanical splices (extra time insulating then) and/or Ilsco insulated taps ($$$$).

So we are looking to invest in a crimper. What type should I be looking for?????
Battery operated or handheld really doesn’t matter to me but I want something that is going to last and that will deliver good results every time.
Click to expand...

there are a couple things here.

read paulengr's post. it's awesome, and everything you need to know.
first, buying chinese knockoffs may work, but i've been on more than a
couple jobs where the specs require a witness mark, (means no universal dies)
and the chinese stuff is hit or miss on a fully swaged connection. that is why
people are putting requirements for witness marks in specs.

i have two crimpers, both by burndy.
the first one is a hand unit, the YF500. uses type W dies. goes to 500 MCM copper, iirc.
i have copper dies for that one only.

then there is what you want.... burndy patriot 12 ton. uses standard dies. lithium batteries.
crimps a 500 mcm in about 4 seconds. goes #6 to 750 mcm copper, aluminum, and full grounding
capabilities.

you will need three separate sets of dies for copper, aluminum, and grounding.

new, all of that is about $8K~9K, for the crimper, and all the dies.
best bet is to look for a used one in good condition.

i've got one i'm thinking of selling, as i haven't used it in almost 5 years.
all the sets, plus the oddball dies it always seems you don't have in the set,
that you need.

plus a pretty good selection of lugs, maybe $3k worth.
if you are interested, send me a PM, and i'll figure out what it's worth to me.
 
electrofelon said:
Still curious about this. Anyone?
Click to expand...

We order the equipment with the type of lugs that are specified for the job. Sometimes mechanical sometimes compression. For large equipment this ensures that the manufacturer has bus detail large enough to accommodate the size and number of terminals required.
 
electrofelon said:
Also for you guys who generally crimp stuff: Are you ordering equipment without mechanical lugs or do you take the lugs off and use crimps?

The main reason I just bought that manual crimper is the multi gang and class 320 sockets I get don't come with lugs, and i had several jobs in a row with these recently
Click to expand...

I usually use them if it’s on equipment. I get rid of split bolts and insulated terminal strips...seen them both fail repeatedly. And a lot of home made stuff. Like on breakers you most often can remove the lugs but doing so is not always easy and it leaves you often with something goofy like two odd size screws that are purposely odd size and space to prevent using another manufacturers lugs. So at that point the bus bar would have to be drilled out and we are quickly stepping outside of Listing. A lot of equipment though just hangs a mechanical lug on a bolt where it’s sort of a judgement call as to what makes the best connection. I try whenever possible to make the best connection. We carry 12+ lugs of 500, 350, 250, 4/0, 2/0, 1/0, on down including some with multiple bolt sizes and I keep 3 of the 600 MCM size for DLO. We’re a motor shop and we need to be prepared to deal with whatever comes our way at least on motors and drives.


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