Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Knob and tube.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    [QUOTE=growler;2008772]
    If it's a new owner they should have had a warning during the home inspection process that the house was wired with K&T and possible problems in the future.
    what if one hails from a state where no HI qualifications are required?

    If the owner can't find an insurance carrier that will insure the property it's their problem.
    kinda like blind guys hoping geico will pick 'em up?

    If the house has to be rewired they need to work with a GC that's good at renovating old houses so that any cutting and patching can be taken care of by them.
    true , unless it's all boon barn....

    The time for an owner to consult with an electrician on a problem like this is before they buy the house.
    which isn't common

    ~RJ~

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by romex jockey View Post
      The insurance cabal that basically wrote the NEC & owns the NFPA by proxy would pick their teeth with any local jurisdiction.
      I chose not to be a helpless tool for your cabal. Good luck with it.
      Another Al in Minnesota

      Comment


        #18
        I don't think knob and tube is as dangerous as most think. Most old homes here have new circuits to the kitchen and baths as well as larger 240 loads. Many knob and tube circuits still in use on second story bedrooms and attics looks as good as the day it was installed.

        Comment


          #19
          well that depends.....

          https://youtu.be/iWac9t-QRz0

          ~RJ~

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
            No.

            The NEC is a new construction standard. The new (in 1984) 394.12 IS NOT retroactive to pre-1984 concealed K&T that exists and is undisturbed and was installed to the Code of its time of assembly, even when the concealed K&T is enveloped in insulation installed pre-1984.

            The pre-1984 NECs are silent about enveloping K&T in insulation, which means it is ALLOWED.

            Your generalization "insulation=code violation" is what the insurance company claims, and in so doing the insurance company is writing its own electrical code that is stricter than the NEC adapted into ordinance by the local jurisdiction.
            Originally posted by romex jockey View Post
            You're kidding right Al ?

            The insurance cabal that basically wrote the NEC & owns the NFPA by proxy would pick their teeth with any local jurisdiction. Your '84 reference is simply where their concern debuted, not to be confused with some grandfathering scheme.

            That rationale is no less a 'BX jacket is an EGC' when a 3rd element of circuitry wasn't even around....

            ~RJ~
            All that means is the installer may have better chance of being relieved of liability if it was pre 1984.

            Insurance can still refuse to offer coverage or offer at a higher premium for anything they don't like.
            I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by kwired View Post
              Insurance can still refuse to offer coverage or offer at a higher premium for anything they don't like.
              And the property owner has the right to refuse to pay the "no-K&T" premium and the multi-thousand dollar bill for the K&T replacement, and has the right to know that Concealed Knob & Tube is still a 2017 National Electrical Code approved wiring method that is enforceable law where adopted into the Local Jurisdiction Ordinances.
              Another Al in Minnesota

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
                And the property owner has the right to refuse to pay the "no-K&T" premium and the multi-thousand dollar bill for the K&T replacement, and has the right to know that Concealed Knob & Tube is still a 2017 National Electrical Code approved wiring method that is enforceable law where adopted into the Local Jurisdiction Ordinances.
                Absolutely, but don't expect to still be covered by same insurance at same time. As corrupt as I think insurance industry is, the basics of how they are supposed to work is higher risk = higher premiums at least to some extent. If there is a way to minimize risk, why not reward that with lower premium? If you disagree with risk assessment, find an insurance company that sees it the way you do - if you even can.

                FPE panel in your house or still have fuse panel - you kind of have a similar situation. Code wise it may be compliant. Insurance company may see there is higher incidents involving those items and see it as a higher risk no matter what condition it has been maintained at.
                I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by kwired View Post
                  Absolutely, but don't expect to still be covered by same insurance at same time. As corrupt as I think insurance industry is, the basics of how they are supposed to work is higher risk = higher premiums at least to some extent. If there is a way to minimize risk, why not reward that with lower premium? If you disagree with risk assessment, find an insurance company that sees it the way you do - if you even can.

                  FPE panel in your house or still have fuse panel - you kind of have a similar situation. Code wise it may be compliant. Insurance company may see there is higher incidents involving those items and see it as a higher risk no matter what condition it has been maintained at.
                  I wanted to hire my grandson part-time. Insurance company said NO! Didn't matter what limitations I put on what he could do. I could hire but if he got hurt and they had to pay I would loose them as a carrier. My choice..
                  Tom
                  TBLO

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by ptonsparky View Post
                    I wanted to hire my grandson part-time. Insurance company said NO! Didn't matter what limitations I put on what he could do. I could hire but if he got hurt and they had to pay I would loose them as a carrier. My choice..
                    And we wonder why we can't get young people interested in certain skilled jobs, they aren't allowed to participate on any level anymore until they are at least 18. Then when they finally are 18 and are interested in such jobs, they don't even know how a screwdriver works. Ok maybe a little extreme but some truth there.
                    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by kwired View Post
                      And we wonder why we can't get young people interested in certain skilled jobs, they aren't allowed to participate on any level anymore until they are at least 18. Then when they finally are 18 and are interested in such jobs, they don't even know how a screwdriver works. Ok maybe a little extreme but some truth there.
                      Yup.
                      Tom
                      TBLO

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I'm going to go out on a limb here as this is I think my 2nd post. I've been a member for a short while. Don't be influenced by my user name. As a general contractor in CA I've overseen miles of electrical wiring and work. I have performed enough myself to qualify as a C-10 but I don't need that as I don't look actively for electrical work only. That which is incidental to the overall scope of the job is allowed under my license.

                        I was faced with a K&T rewire similar to the OP's situation. One thing about K&T is there is no such thing as a 'hybrid' wiring system that uses some K&T 'here and there'. The neutrals are likely to be spliced together kinda sorta following the individual hot wires, but sometimes not all that closely in the attic. You disconnect 100% of the K&T and cut it back, or wire the hots and neutral together, so it can't be used.

                        However, there has been some talk about using low voltage to power lighting fixtures that are all but impossible to rewire. Low voltage lamping has expanded nowadays to include some great choices including the simple retrofit of a 12v incandescent in place of a line voltage bulb. The NEC apparently does not address voltages less than 50v with a few exceptions. Placing a transformer in a way to pick up some of the wiring is something to consider. I suppose I would discuss this with the AHJ before commencing. Note: I have read Ch 3 extensively and this proposition is not clearly addressed. I looked into battery powered homes and that hasn't come into play much either.

                        Since this thread is mainly concerned with insurance, insulation and old codes, discussing this with an intended insurer would be very wise. There is very little info on the subject so this has to be a case by case alternative. Worth looking at AFAIC. There in only one consideration and that is the worthiness of the existing rubber coated single wire not combined with the other wire in a cable. Again, does that requirement apply?

                        In the end, we did not go with any low voltage but it sticks in my craw. If you have specific code citations that apply here, I think we could benefit.

                        One more thing: luminaires are required to meet UL standards in any scheme within architecture. That isn't hard to overcome if existing fixtures are taken to the appropriate facility to be rewired with an appropriate gauge. You might be able to do this yourself using UL approved wiring. I rewire corded lighting all the time using rated wire that is sometimes manufactured to look the part of old silk covered cord. I have never rewired an old fixture and installed in a job to be inspected. I'd like to hear about that as well.

                        Gentlemen (and ladies), thank you for reading.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          [QUOTE=oddjobfix;2010658]

                          I was faced with a K&T rewire similar to the OP's situation. One thing about K&T is there is no such thing as a 'hybrid' wiring system that uses some K&T 'here and there'. The neutrals are likely to be spliced together kinda sorta following the individual hot wires, but sometimes not all that closely in the attic. You disconnect 100% of the K&T and cut it back, or wire the hots and neutral together, so it can't be used.
                          Standard fare....

                          However, there has been some talk about using low voltage to power lighting fixtures that are all but impossible to rewire. Low voltage lamping has expanded nowadays to include some great choices including the simple retrofit of a 12v incandescent in place of a line voltage bulb. The NEC apparently does not address voltages less than 50v with a few exceptions. Placing a transformer in a way to pick up some of the wiring is something to consider. I suppose I would discuss this with the AHJ before commencing. Note: I have read Ch 3 extensively and this proposition is not clearly addressed. I looked into battery powered homes and that hasn't come into play much either.
                          Most AHJ's will inform you they haven't the authority to alter a listing



                          In the end, we did not go with any low voltage but it sticks in my craw. If you have specific code citations that apply here, I think we could benefit.
                          or morbidity & mortality stats...

                          One more thing: luminaires are required to meet UL standards in any scheme within architecture. That isn't hard to overcome if existing fixtures are taken to the appropriate facility to be rewired with an appropriate gauge. You might be able to do this yourself using UL approved wiring. I rewire corded lighting all the time using rated wire that is sometimes manufactured to look the part of old silk covered cord. I have never rewired an old fixture and installed in a job to be inspected. I'd like to hear about that as well.
                          UL does field evaluations for such rebuilds , which would be the end result of any proper inspection.....big $$$'s

                          Gentlemen (and ladies), thank you for reading.
                          a pleasure sir

                          ~RJ~

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by oddjobfix View Post
                            One thing about K&T is there is no such thing as a 'hybrid' wiring system that uses some K&T 'here and there'.
                            Sure there is. I've seen and worked on K&T combined with rigid pipe and BX cable.
                            Master Electrician
                            Electrical Contractor
                            Richmond, VA

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
                              And the property owner has the right to refuse to pay the "no-K&T" premium and the multi-thousand dollar bill for the K&T replacement, and has the right to know that Concealed Knob & Tube is still a 2017 National Electrical Code approved wiring method that is enforceable law where adopted into the Local
                              Jurisdiction Ordinances.
                              An insurer allowing sign off specifics basically offers policy that covers nothing, as FF forensics will blame electrical , especially if K&T survives TO be found.....

                              &&&&

                              Other than LV decorative bar lights ,art 394 is for reference , as no <sane> EC could wire a dwelling with K&T

                              ~RJ~

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by oddjobfix View Post



                                However, there has been some talk about using low voltage to power lighting fixtures that are all but impossible to rewire. Low voltage lamping has expanded nowadays to include some great choices including the simple retrofit of a 12v incandescent in place of a line voltage bulb. The NEC apparently does not address voltages less than 50v with a few exceptions. Placing a transformer in a way to pick up some of the wiring is something to consider. I suppose I would discuss this with the AHJ before commencing. Note: I have read Ch 3 extensively and this proposition is not clearly addressed. I looked into battery powered homes and that hasn't come into play much either.

                                ...

                                In the end, we did not go with any low voltage but it sticks in my craw. If you have specific code citations that apply here, I think we could benefit.
                                Art 411 covers lighting operating at 30 volts or less and lighting supplied by class 2 power source.

                                411.5(A):
                                (A) Walls, Floors, and Ceilings.Conductors concealed or extended through a wall, floor, or ceiling shall be in accordance with (1) or (2):


                                Installed using any of the wiring methods specified in Chapter 3


                                Installed using wiring supplied by a listed Class 2 power source and installed in accordance with 725.130

                                Just because voltage is low doesn't mean current is low. Class 2 will have more current limitation.

                                if you have a 250 VA supply @ 12 volts that is 20.8 amps at rated load, conductors still heat up with that kind of current regardless you just have less risk of shock if you come into contact with it. If you have concealed K&T and non class 2 circuit, you still have same things to be concerned about for the installation of the wiring method as you do for 120 volts.
                                I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X