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    #16
    Originally posted by ActionDave View Post

    Stop specing things that are over sized, or have no real benefit, minimum size 3/4" conduit and compression only connectors come to mind, and for heaven's sake go through the boiler plate list and question everything on it.
    These requirements are not always from the engineer. If you are dealing with NYC or the Port Authority or a similar entity, they frequently have their own requirements that go beyond code. I have sat in on value engineering projects where we've been able to show the PA they could cut a fire alarm installation cost in half by running EMT instead of RMC, but they wouldn't have it.

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      #17
      Originally posted by gadfly56 View Post

      These requirements are not always from the engineer. If you are dealing with NYC or the Port Authority or a similar entity, they frequently have their own requirements that go beyond code. I have sat in on value engineering projects where we've been able to show the PA they could cut a fire alarm installation cost in half by running EMT instead of RMC, but they wouldn't have it.
      It really is a shame that so much of what goes on in the construction world is based on someone's emotional attachment to a standard or practice instead of what really necessary.
      If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

      Comment


        #18
        "CotGW" - that's good. Can I use that until you get the copy write?

        Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
        ...
        Why is that? I thought memberships to these two cults often overlapped? ...
        Nope. Nearly at opposite ends of the spectrum

        Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
        ... 1. Equipment grounding is the panacea of electrical safety. No other aspect of an electrical installation comes close in importance. ...
        Not "grounding", rather "bonding".

        Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
        ... 2. Non wire type EGC's listed in 250.118 are inadequate. ...
        A true member, or even an associate member of the CotGW would use all as is appropriate for good design.

        Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
        ... 3. Fork lifts destroy raceway continuity pretty much all the time, then people die from shocks. It's only a matter of time until a forklift compromises a raceway system. ...
        Well. that's true about the forklifts, along with backhoes, snow plows, mechanical maintenance, gorilla operators, and joint corrosion over time Although rarely anybody dies, just occasionally get bit.

        Then there is the problem that once the conduit is compromised, the high impedance low current ground faults really make a mess until the fault goes line to line and then quickly trips.

        As for the time, yes eventually.


        Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
        ... Note I am not a member, there may be other core principles. ...
        I agree there may be other principles. I can neither confirm nor deny if I am a member of the inner CotGW circle.

        However, I am certain I am on the dirt worshiper list of "beat before speech" list.


        Without data you’re just another person with an opinion – Edwards Deming

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by ActionDave View Post

          It really is a shame that so much of what goes on in the construction world is based on someone's emotional attachment to a standard or practice instead of what really necessary.
          Yes and some I understand - color me ambivalent
          • A couple of the oil company majors wanted 3/4 rsc minimum. Belief is 1/2" breaks much easier at the threads. It's true that after a few years, there are lot of UG rusted, broken, conduits. Not sure if 3/4 made much difference.
          And yes, 1/2 conduit threaded into a solidly mounted nema 7 enclosure is a bit wimpy. Maybe 3/4 is better.
          • #10 CU minimum - never understood that one, especially for controls.
          • #10 and smaller Solid only ???
          • Stranded only. Yep, seen both, luckily it was different companies.
          • copper only transformers, dry type, 500KVA down to just above control transformers.
          I'm in the aluminum camp. Been fighting this one for well over 20 years. Never convinced anyone, but I finally outlived the old guard.

          I'm sure there are dozens more. These are the short list coming to mind
          Without data you’re just another person with an opinion – Edwards Deming

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by ActionDave View Post

            It really is a shame that so much of what goes on in the construction world is based on someone's emotional attachment to a standard or practice instead of what really necessary.

            Thirty years in the trades and I have never seen that happen. Not only that have I never seen it happen I consider it an unreasonable expectation.


            It really is a shame that so much of what goes on in the construction world is based on someone's emotional attachment to a standard or practice instead of what really necessary.

            Thirty years in the trades and I have never seen that happen. Not only that have I never seen it happen I consider it an unreasonable expectation.



            ................


            Those are broad statements that hardly apply in the engineering arena. The kind of shibboleth oozing out of unproven sententious remarks.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by myspark View Post
              ...Those are broad statements that hardly apply in the engineering arena. The kind of shibboleth oozing out of unproven sententious remarks.
              Okay, I bleached my eyeballs and read it again - no better. Could someone give me a translation?
              Without data you’re just another person with an opinion – Edwards Deming

              Comment


                #22
                Any design practices you see that make your job difficult?
                lack of overlays

                for ex, the smokes might lay out right on top of hvac vents....

                ~RJ~

                Comment


                  #23
                  How about when you spec. something and you are wrong you don't point out "well we did say it must meet all codes etc.". Like the time on a site lighting job where you changed elevation after new bases and the poles were set and lit. Or the time we were supposed to use the crawlspace that wasn't there. Or the time you made a set of plans from a 45 year old original set that never had an as-built or update added to it and couldn't understand where all the confusion was coming from so didn't reply to the RFIs. Or the time you didn't leave space for any electrical. Or the ....

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by myspark View Post


                    Thirty years in the trades and I have never seen that happen. Not only that have I never seen it happen I consider it an unreasonable expectation.


                    It really is a shame that so much of what goes on in the construction world is based on someone's emotional attachment to a standard or practice instead of what really necessary.

                    Thirty years in the trades and I have never seen that happen. Not only that have I never seen it happen I consider it an unreasonable expectation.



                    ................


                    Those are broad statements that hardly apply in the engineering arena. The kind of shibboleth oozing out of unproven sententious remarks.
                    They are broad statements and I stand by them. I don't care if you think they apply in the engineering arena or not.

                    What is your point anyway?
                    If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      You haven't been doing much in those thirty years.

                      In big- budget projects that involve tremendous man hours of budgeting, planning, engineering and actual execution of the project, change orders and revisions are common order of the day.

                      I have handled projects that were located halfway around the world with no administrative and engineering support since the home office was ,well, halfway around the world. And when things go haywire, there is no Home Depot or supply house when you’re out of a critical item.

                      This is when engineering and procurement during the planning stage become crucial.

                      In the military, everything have to be accounted for. . .from the smallest machine screw to the biggest lag bolt.

                      This is when I rely heavily on what design engineers had planned. There is no room for second guessing when you are faced with inconsistencies.

                      I was a MIL-SPEC COMPLIANCE representative of the engineering consultant under contract with US Armed Forces Office based in Chicago.

                      Everything on the plan and on the drawings have to be compiled with. Should there be any disagreement between drawings and specs. . .the specs prevail.

                      Any further disagreement will result in change order.

                      Going through change order is a lengthy process--especially when it comes to contracts with the government.

                      My job (along with my colleagues) was to the get the project run smoothly-- and we were there to resolve (as much as we can within our line of authority) to handle problems. . . and there will always be problems.

                      Handling problems of this magnitude require specialized training offered in Engineering Studies called:

                      Project Evaluation and Review Technique as well as Critical Path Method (PERT/CPM)

                      You get my point now?















                      Comment


                        #26
                        I've been on CPM a few times at nukes, not real fun if your the one lagging; regardless of why.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by sameguy View Post
                          I've been on CPM a few times at nukes, not real fun if your the one lagging; regardless of why.
                          I was told once that I did a good job of staying ahead of the slowest contractor.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by myspark View Post
                            You get my point now?
                            If your point is attention to detail, yes....

                            ~RJ~











                            [

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by myspark View Post
                              You haven't been doing much in those thirty years.
                              I keep myself busy enough doing grunt work most days of the week.

                              In big- budget projects that involve tremendous man hours of budgeting, planning, engineering and actual execution of the project, change orders and revisions are common order of the day.
                              So you agree with me then.

                              I have handled projects that were located halfway around the world with no administrative and engineering support since the home office was ,well, halfway around the world. And when things go haywire, there is no Home Depot or supply house when you’re out of a critical item.

                              This is when engineering and procurement during the planning stage become crucial.

                              In the military, everything have to be accounted for. . .from the smallest machine screw to the biggest lag bolt.
                              So is that what you did? Go around and count all the screws needed and then make sure each one of them was used on site or did you count all the bolts? One person couldn't possibly do both screws and bolts could he?

                              This is when I rely heavily on what design engineers had planned. There is no room for second guessing when you are faced with inconsistencies.
                              What inconsistencies? Did you loose count of the screws and have to start over?

                              I was a MIL-SPEC COMPLIANCE representative of the engineering consultant under contract with US Armed Forces Office based in Chicago.

                              Everything on the plan and on the drawings have to be compiled with. Should there be any disagreement between drawings and specs. . .the specs prevail.

                              Any further disagreement will result in change order.

                              Going through change order is a lengthy process--especially when it comes to contracts with the government.

                              My job (along with my colleagues) was to the get the project run smoothly-- and we were there to resolve (as much as we can within our line of authority) to handle problems. . . and there will always be problems.
                              Now you start throwing in qualifying statements. You can't have it both ways. Either the engineering and procurement during the planning stage is executed perfectly or someone is going to have to fly halfway around the world and get some screws at Home Depot. Where do the folks halfway around the world get there screws anyway since Home Depot is only in the US?

                              Handling problems of this magnitude require specialized training offered in Engineering Studies called:

                              Project Evaluation and Review Technique as well as Critical Path Method (PERT/CPM)
                              Probably not something I would be able to understand.

                              You get my point now?
                              Not really but maybe it's because I'm tired.

                              If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I turned 26 about the same month I got my E1 in the mail. That was one year after buying my house, a tear down on a nice lot, Having done three years running on large plan and spec jobs, and ten years before that in all types electrical service contracting, my initial target market was Public Works plan and spec bidding.. Did that full bore for ten years.

                                My initial thinking was the people around me were supposed to be of a higher grade, a job with Engineers, owner is the State or Town. I expected to be low bidder, but the people around me were supposed to be better, people who do the right thing, at a higher level.

                                Boy was I wrong about that. I can say I saw grade A plans on the first try, only maybe once. The majority of the time I would see necessary changes at the bid stage and if not, at the layout stage before building it (wrong).

                                So offensive deficiencies caught and brought up at the earliest possible time, before the bid, or if not, before constructing it.

                                Stupid stuff like a dual gas boiler changeout for 12 floors of subsidized elderly retirement (Kennedy era) apts. Engineer shows the cold water feed entering the boiler instead or the tempering tank. Plumber happened to hire me for three days of plumbing before it was ready to wire, and this was my part of the boiler room to plumb. I knew it was certainly wrong but not why (probably low water and boiler temp resulting in flue gas condensation and short sweet boiler lifetime).

                                I bring it to my friend the prime contractor's attention and he kind of blows me off but does get it escalated to the Engineer, who sends out an unlicensed person, a drafter or job admin, (I was aware of *this* scam), who says (and I am repeating what my friend the plumber told me of his conversation with the Engineer's assistant) "we know your rep in the industry. Do it exactly the way the drawing shows, if there's a 90, put in a 90".

                                Right at the same time I was just back on my feet from near death pneumonia, so winter of 1997. Somehow I got the AO Smith boiler rep on the phone and his response was "where is that job, I am going to pull the warranty off that job". Then he said he had seen it with that boiler model. Flue gas condensation would plug up the the outside of the coils and the flame would end up going around the outside of the boiler.

                                I was also aware that the temp rise of the cold water feed inside the boiler tubing would cause mineral to precipitate out and lime it up.

                                I think I may have got paid for that job maybe three years later. Job was built plans and specs, never a problem there. But at some point after it was done there was no check.

                                Any other problem on the job was just business as usual, but the problem of no pay was insurmountable. The trend definitely got worse with time and computerization.
                                Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

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