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2020 NEC requirement for outdoor disconnect on 1 or two family dwelling units.

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    #76
    Originally posted by hbiss View Post

    This kind of stuff irks me no end. As soon as a new code cycle is even mentioned instructors go woah, I need teach to it. You are on the the 2014 NEC AS AMENDED. How about focusing on making your class proficient with that code instead of confusing them with something they may not see until years from now if ever? Geeze, some states are still on the 2008. I'm on the 14. I couldn't care less about the 17 and I'll probably be retired before the 20.

    As to your question, pretty much the same principle applies. Don't expect suppliers and manufacturers to gear up with this stuff when demand for it might be 5 years from now, if ever.
    I must admit being surprised by this. I would think a Vo-Tec should be the FIRST to implement teaching the new methods that will be coming out, even if years down the road. It will be years before their students are the journeymen in the field, and that shouldn't be the first time they have to adapt to the new methods and products. You'll retire before they become normal, but today's students will just be getting started as professionals by then.

    As noted, the manufacturers are already geared up and making these products. They are the way it is done in much of the country. I can't remember if I've ever seen a main disco not outside at the service entrance, usually as a meter/main combo panel like this:

    [img]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ugcAA...gn/s-l1600.jpg[/img]

    For space considerations, it doesn't have to be a combo, of course, but just a main breaker or some other type of disco:

    [img]https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/p...nect-Meter.jpg[/img]

    Comment


      #77
      Originally posted by Hv&Lv View Post

      Personally, I would rather see disconnects installed on CT installations outside. A meter can be pulled with no problem. A CT installation with no disconnect outside has to be shut off from the XF.
      Presume this is to protect the CT's, do you not have bypass inside your CT metering sockets?

      If it is because of firefighters pulling meters and fact the CT meter doesn't disconnect power to the facility when it is pulled, who says they still don't try to pull meter thinking that will disconnect power even if there is a main switch right next to it?
      I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

      Comment


        #78
        Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
        Not sure if anyone answered the question but we use what GE calls a trailer panel. It is a wp panel 200 amp with 8 cir and feed thru lugs. TM8-20RCUFL. About $125 from Home Depot



        Click image for larger version Name:	TM820RCUFL_interior1_400Wx400H.jpg Views:	12 Size:	16.7 KB ID:	2533346



        Click image for larger version Name:	ge-main-breaker-boxes-tm820rcuflp-64_1000.jpg Views:	0 Size:	54.8 KB ID:	2533343
        Other manufacturers have had basically same thing for years also. Some even with meter socket included.

        I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by GerryB View Post

          The building code in Nebraska is composed of two codes the International Building Code (commercial building) and the International Residential Code. Whenever a new edition of the codes (IBC or IRC) is published, it is automatically considered the state building code. Bill drafters contend that the Nebraska Legislature has inadvertently delegated away their legislative authority to the International Codes Council which publishes these codes. (high lighted below)
          I goggled this and don't know how old it is or if still in effect. What I am saying is most electricians don't know this.
          Probably is correct, nobody is enforcing it though other than maybe in the larger cities that have building inspectors. State Electrical Division is a stand alone entity (and isn't even tax payer funded, just state controlled, they operate entirely on the fees they generate) and has inspectors statewide - even construction out in the boonies gets electrical inspections. Generally speaking for new construction/new services - POCO will not energize the service if they don't get notification from SED that there is a permit. Said structure out in the boonies can be very poorly constructed and not follow any building code at all and nobody does much of anything about it though, if anything insurance may refuse to insure it if it is bad enough that the insurance agent has any question about what is there.
          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by kwired View Post

            Presume this is to protect the CT's, do you not have bypass inside your CT metering sockets?

            If it is because of firefighters pulling meters and fact the CT meter doesn't disconnect power to the facility when it is pulled, who says they still don't try to pull meter thinking that will disconnect power even if there is a main switch right next to it?
            I prefer them for my safety and convenience. If I had disconnects before the CT metering installation, I wouldn’t have to take out an entire building for maintenance, or to disconnect this business if need be for something as simple as they shut down.

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by Hv&Lv View Post

              I prefer them for my safety and convenience. If I had disconnects before the CT metering installation, I wouldn’t have to take out an entire building for maintenance, or to disconnect this business if need be for something as simple as they shut down.
              Even if I have my service disconnect near the CT meter, which I do commonly have on larger services on some farm operations or other outdoor specific load installations, POCO's here have it load side of metering - they don't want customer access to non metered conductors. Nearly all those situations the transformer supplies a single service and killing the transformer isn't a big deal as it doesn't effect other customers. If they need to disconnect the meter itself while servicing it, there are bypass components within the meter socket.

              A service disconnect ahead of CT's or even after if all you want is no current thru the CT's when working on them is still taking the entire service down when you open it
              I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

              Comment


                #82
                Originally posted by kwired View Post

                Even if I have my service disconnect near the CT meter, which I do commonly have on larger services on some farm operations or other outdoor specific load installations, POCO's here have it load side of metering - they don't want customer access to non metered conductors. Nearly all those situations the transformer supplies a single service and killing the transformer isn't a big deal as it doesn't effect other customers. If they need to disconnect the meter itself while servicing it, there are bypass components within the meter socket.

                A service disconnect ahead of CT's or even after if all you want is no current thru the CT's when working on them is still taking the entire service down when you open it
                Sorry, I didn’t proofread correctly.... Trying to do this on a iPhone is aggravating...
                My statement should have read, “before or after”.
                I deleted some typing and went too far back.

                I don’t really care about current through the CTs. I can shunt them out for metering wiring maintenance, testing,or pull shunt blades for the meter.
                What if I need to change them, or change a service.
                Everywhere is different..
                I have one installation here where a 750kVA feeds a small mall. About 18-20 businesses.

                Lets say you want to rewire one of these businesses for a different business with different electrical requirements.
                The conductors go to the CT “cabinet” which has been in for years, and is really a 12X12X 96 trough rather than a 30X30 CT cabinet, where they are connected to your conductors going to your panel(s)
                you call and say you need the service disconnected so you can change everything.
                Here if the disconnect was before the trough life would be real easy.

                I disconnect it hot? I can, and have, but with the new AF requirements, our rules are nothing over a 150 kVA hot to minimize AF.
                so, I come in, shut the entire installation down in the wee hours in the AM to minimize disruption. Again, a disconnect on the line side would solve this.
                Its not required, not our equipment, but it takes a lot of aggravation out of it.

                We have a couple of installations where they have this setup. We did require it of at least two property’s (strip malls) because it seemed like they changed electrical every time they changed tenants, which seemed like every year or two...

                For a 30X30 CT cabinet like we all have installed, a disconnect would be great on either side.

                Comment


                  #83
                  Originally posted by Hv&Lv View Post

                  Sorry, I didn’t proofread correctly.... Trying to do this on a iPhone is aggravating...
                  My statement should have read, “before or after”.
                  I deleted some typing and went too far back.

                  I don’t really care about current through the CTs. I can shunt them out for metering wiring maintenance, testing,or pull shunt blades for the meter.
                  What if I need to change them, or change a service.
                  Everywhere is different..
                  I have one installation here where a 750kVA feeds a small mall. About 18-20 businesses.

                  Lets say you want to rewire one of these businesses for a different business with different electrical requirements.
                  The conductors go to the CT “cabinet” which has been in for years, and is really a 12X12X 96 trough rather than a 30X30 CT cabinet, where they are connected to your conductors going to your panel(s)
                  you call and say you need the service disconnected so you can change everything.
                  Here if the disconnect was before the trough life would be real easy.

                  I disconnect it hot? I can, and have, but with the new AF requirements, our rules are nothing over a 150 kVA hot to minimize AF.
                  so, I come in, shut the entire installation down in the wee hours in the AM to minimize disruption. Again, a disconnect on the line side would solve this.
                  Its not required, not our equipment, but it takes a lot of aggravation out of it.

                  We have a couple of installations where they have this setup. We did require it of at least two property’s (strip malls) because it seemed like they changed electrical every time they changed tenants, which seemed like every year or two...

                  For a 30X30 CT cabinet like we all have installed, a disconnect would be great on either side.
                  Nothing wrong with POCO requiring said disconnect or you get no service, if they want to do that. Why does NEC need to require it?
                  I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by kwired View Post

                    Nothing wrong with POCO requiring said disconnect or you get no service, if they want to do that. Why does NEC need to require it?
                    Then we wouldn’t have to listen to so much whining...

                    Comment


                      #85
                      I can't remember if I've ever seen a main disco not outside at the service entrance, usually as a meter/main combo panel like this:
                      You're not from around here, are ya?

                      And I speak from many populated areas here in VA, NC, MD...... Never used around here unless cable length inside building to main panel makes outside disconnect mandatory.

                      Salt, humidity and outside metal are not a good match.

                      For an example, just see this other current thread:

                      https://forums.mikeholt.com/forum/ac...le-heating-etc
                      Last edited by Frank DuVal; 09-13-19, 10:34 AM.
                      Fredericksburg, VA

                      21 Hours from Winged Horses with traffic;)

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by MAC702 View Post

                        I must admit being surprised by this. I would think a Vo-Tec should be the FIRST to implement teaching the new methods that will be coming out, even if years down the road. It will be years before their students are the journeymen in the field, and that shouldn't be the first time they have to adapt to the new methods and products.
                        They do it just like we do it. Ever hear of continuing education?? Students need to learn what they need to know for the job they will be doing when they get done with tech school. Covering code changes for, in some cases four cycles beyond what they will be using is only going to be confusing and almost certainly forgotten. Hell, I can't keep the AFCI crap straight when someone asks a question here. I only know what the 2014 code requires because that's what we use.

                        Most states require some kind of continuing education and that is where you learn about the changes when your state adopts a new code cycle. Don't worry about it until then.

                        Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
                        As noted, the manufacturers are already geared up and making these products. They are the way it is done in much of the country. I can't remember if I've ever seen a main disco not outside at the service entrance, usually as a meter/main combo panel...
                        Yeah, in much of the country. I don't know where you get your information from. Like I said, panels don't belong outside. And I've never seen an outdoor disconnect that didn't have to be there.

                        -Hal



                        Comment


                          #87
                          Originally posted by hbiss View Post

                          They do it just like we do it. Ever hear of continuing education?? Students need to learn what they need to know for the job they will be doing when they get done with tech school. Covering code changes for, in some cases four cycles beyond what they will be using is only going to be confusing and almost certainly forgotten. Hell, I can't keep the AFCI crap straight when someone asks a question here. I only know what the 2014 code requires because that's what we use.

                          Most states require some kind of continuing education and that is where you learn about the changes when your state adopts a new code cycle. Don't worry about it until then.



                          Yeah, in much of the country. I don't know where you get your information from. Like I said, panels don't belong outside. And I've never seen an outdoor disconnect that didn't have to be there.

                          -Hal


                          As far as a schooling for electricians and which code should be taught, not all students will end up working in the same state they went to school in. That said, many probably still teach whatever is current where they are located. I know what was and probably still is typical for the school I went to - they likely try to modify courses and won't hit code too hard this fall semester simply because 2020 wasn't available when the semester started, but likely will start hitting code classes when next semester starts in January with the 2020 NEC. It likely won't be law in this state until sometime between May and August though. Because it is in State statutes is has to go through legislation before it becomes law, and even then won't ordinarily go into effect until 90 days after, not sure if that is 90 days after it is passed or 90 days after legislative session ends. It usually passes, but there are other bills that are higher priority and you just don't know when it will go through the process.
                          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by kwired View Post

                            As far as a schooling for electricians and which code should be taught, not all students will end up working in the same state they went to school in.
                            I'll even go so far as saying that teaching a particular code is a moot point. The important thing for a student is they need to master how the Code is arranged, what it covers, where to find things and how to interpret what's written. So using a current Code will do that. Once they have that concept down, they should be smart enough to understand the inevitable Code changes that affect their work.

                            If I were paying for a vocational school, I would want to learn what I need to know to get a job after I'm done, along with a solid understanding of the industry. After that it's on the job training. I don't want to pay someone to waste my time with things I won't see for years if ever. If I need to, I can figure those out myself if you've given me the tools to do so. So teach how to read and understand the Code, not what it says.

                            -Hal

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Originally posted by LPS View Post
                              Can someone please give me a manufacturer and model number or numbers?
                              For exterior disconnects on residential I use the Square D QOM2 enclosure with appropriately sized breaker, and a main-lug loadcenter inside.

                              Any supply house around you should have something similar as there are many installs that currently require a disconnect.


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                              [COLOR="Blue"]Brought to you by Carl's Jr.[/COLOR]

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by brantmacga View Post

                                For exterior disconnects on residential I use the Square D QOM2 enclosure with appropriately sized breaker, and a main-lug loadcenter inside.

                                Any supply house around you should have something similar as there are many installs that currently require a disconnect.


                                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                                Why a main-lug loadcenter inside? I realize another breaker inside is redundant (and if the same rating as the one outside, you may have to hunt for the one that tripped), but if you're working on the panel I'd think it would be more convenient to -know- that power was off without having to lock out the outside breaker.

                                "Take my money, and give me what I want!"

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