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    GFCI PROTECTION

    In section 422.5 (A) (5) a vending machine is required to have GFCI protection. Is a coffee maker in a public space, like a quick stop store, with an attached water line required to be GFCI protected ? It is cord and plug connected.

    #2
    If it meets the definition of a vending machine, IE customers insert money, a credit card into the machine or otherwise pay it to dispense coffee then yes. If it's just a regular coffee maker like a Keurig and they pay the cashier for the coffee then help themselves then no.

    -Hal

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      #3
      Originally posted by Simple View Post
      In section 422.5 (A) (5) a vending machine is required to have GFCI protection. Is a coffee maker in a public space, like a quick stop store, with an attached water line required to be GFCI protected ? It is cord and plug connected.
      Is the receptacle within 6' of a sink?
      They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
      She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
      I can't help it if I'm lucky

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        #4
        Originally posted by hbiss View Post
        If it meets the definition of a vending machine, IE customers insert money, a credit card into the machine or otherwise pay it to dispense coffee then yes. If it's just a regular coffee maker like a Keurig and they pay the cashier for the coffee then help themselves then no.

        -Hal
        so does the water line being connected not factor in at all? if the water line does not factor in, why is it required to have GFCI protection on a drinking water cooler (fountain) ? I don't pay to get a drink of water.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Simple View Post

          so does the water line being connected not factor in at all? if the water line does not factor in, why is it required to have GFCI protection on a drinking water cooler (fountain) ? I don't pay to get a drink of water.
          I can't say for sure what the code making panel's rational is on this but, IMO, you're more likely to receive a shock from a water fountain than from a coffee maker. You would have your hands on the fountain as well as (often) your mouth on the water. Whereas on the coffee maker, only occasional contact and then mostly on plastic parts, such as the switch or pot handle.
          [COLOR=navy]If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time![/COLOR]

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            #6
            Originally posted by Little Bill View Post

            I can't say for sure what the code making panel's rational is on this but, IMO, you're more likely to receive a shock from a water fountain than from a coffee maker. You would have your hands on the fountain as well as (often) your mouth on the water. Whereas on the coffee maker, only occasional contact and then mostly on plastic parts, such as the switch or pot handle.
            Thanks for the information. I was looking at it like this, the coffee makers are metal and I know code changes have been made to protect employs in kitchens I was just thinking that this might be something the code panels might need to address in the future.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Simple View Post

              Thanks for the information. I was looking at it like this, the coffee makers are metal and I know code changes have been made to protect employs in kitchens I was just thinking that this might be something the code panels might need to address in the future.
              I would like to hear some real life cases of someone getting shocked by coffee maker before seeing any code changes
              Think for yourself, while its still somewhat legal!
              Clarkesville, Georgia

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                #8
                Originally posted by readydave8 View Post

                I would like to hear some real life cases of someone getting shocked by coffee maker before seeing any code changes
                I would like to know if there even was any cases with the drinking fountains back when they were required to have GFCI protection. Not impossible but seems not too likely. The GFCI requirements have gone from instances where risk are higher to let's just protect this just in case, and the additions in 2017 for 150 volt to ground or less were because "we now have these devices available" and not because there was any increase in shock incidents in those particular circuits.
                I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by kwired View Post

                  I would like to know if there even was any cases with the drinking fountains back when they were required to have GFCI protection. Not impossible but seems not too likely. The GFCI requirements have gone from instances where risk are higher to let's just protect this just in case, and the additions in 2017 for 150 volt to ground or less were because "we now have these devices available" and not because there was any increase in shock incidents in those particular circuits.
                  Honestly, I always thought polarized plugs did more to stop shocking incidents. Don’t have any hard facts, it’s just my opinion.
                  I get a call now about something not working, it’s usually after a t-storm. I tell them to go to every receptacle and look for GFCI.

                  When I used to get calls about shocking appliances, it was usually a receptacle wired backwards.
                  still see this with some DIY outlets..

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Hv&Lv View Post

                    Honestly, I always thought polarized plugs did more to stop shocking incidents. Don’t have any hard facts, it’s just my opinion.
                    I get a call now about something not working, it’s usually after a t-storm. I tell them to go to every receptacle and look for GFCI.

                    When I used to get calls about shocking appliances, it was usually a receptacle wired backwards.
                    still see this with some DIY outlets..
                    Water fountains shouldn't care about polarity. The neutral doesn't connect to the frame of the appliance the EGC does. The only risk of shock is mostly if there is a ground fault and the EGC is compromised. Most these drinking fountains (before GFCI requirements) had the receptacle mounted up inside the frame of the appliance where it wasn't exposed to abuse and the EGC on the cord cap likely seldom seen much abuse or ended up missing. The fact that appliance also has water associated with it isn't a good reason to just assume the risk of shock is higher, as long as the EGC remains intact that risk is still pretty low. The water is on the top side of the unit, the electric components are inside where it never gets wet unless something malfunctions, and even if that happens as long as EGC remains intact there still isn't much threat to a user of the appliance.
                    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Little Bill View Post

                      I can't say for sure what the code making panel's rational is on this but, IMO, you're more likely to receive a shock from a water fountain than from a coffee maker.
                      Seems the common denominator is anything that is or has refrigeration. Has to be a rational explanation if they are indeed more prone to fault to ground.

                      -Hal

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Simple View Post

                        Thanks for the information. I was looking at it like this, the coffee makers are metal and I know code changes have been made to protect employs in kitchens I was just thinking that this might be something the code panels might need to address in the future.
                        PLEASE DON'T ENCOURAGE THEM!

                        -Hal

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by hbiss View Post

                          Seems the common denominator is anything that is or has refrigeration. Has to be a rational explanation if they are indeed more prone to fault to ground.

                          -Hal
                          I don't see refrigeration as being a common denominator. Anything that has water associated in some way is a common denominator, and rightfully so to some extent, but seems to have gone the way of if water is associated at all or if the location is potentially damp location at times then they are adding it to the list of things that need GFCI protection. Most of what has been added to requirements since about 2005 or 2008 is somewhat nonsense IMO, I think they feel they need to make changes no matter what and what got put in each particular year is all they could come up with even though it had poor justification for doing so. My only other thought is maybe there is a goal to make it so everything is protected and they are just adding a little at a time.

                          Having GFP on everything might not be a bad thing, I don't think we need class A level protection on everything though.
                          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Hv&Lv View Post


                            When I used to get calls about shocking appliances, it was usually a receptacle wired backwards.
                            still see this with some DIY outlets..
                            How does that work?
                            Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                            "You can't generalize"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by electrofelon View Post

                              How does that work?
                              If you had an appliance that was just a 2-wire. no EGC, and the receptacle was wired backwards/reversed, the hot would go to the frame of the appliance if the neutral was bonded to it. If you touched that and something else conductive, you would get a shock. Another example, on a lamp the neutral is the shell of the socket. If the receptacle was wired reversed, the shell would then be hot and you could get shocked when turning it on or changing the bulb. Could also happen if you turned the 2-prong plug the wrong way before the prongs were keyed to only fit one way.
                              [COLOR=navy]If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time![/COLOR]

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