Separate lighting and receptacle circs?

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ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
With using CAFCI breakers, has it become common practice and advised now to keep lighting circuits separate from receptacle circuits in homes ? Thanks

I have to admit to, I've been out of the loop, afci and gfci, when did this cafci come about? what code cycle is it required? honestly first I heard or read about them. Maybe I should frequent here more
 
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ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
No kidding? Seems like it would take more wire and energy. Say you have a switch and receptacle 6' away from each other, You'll come from another switch or light from another room to feed the lighting and also a receptacle from another room to feed the receptacle?? Seems like more holes, wire, labor..

To mention though, I installed a led fixture on a gfci/afci circuit a couple weeks back which every so often tripped the breaker. wouldn't want that on a whole house job. Why can't they leave well enough alone. And I miss running multi wire branch circuits.
oh well
 
Note there is a difference between a CAFCI and a dual function AFCI . The former does not provide class A GFCI protection, but rather (supposedly) protects against multiple kinds of Arc faults.

When I first started a usually did receps and lights separate, but I generally don't now. I just don't see any significant enough reason in doing such.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Cookie-cutter low-bid homes get lights & receps on the same circuits.

Top-end high$ customs get 'em separated.

and back stabbed

Opinion... reason why one is superior over the other please.
I don't low bid and wire combining lights and receptacles AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO unless as the post asks, because of the afci/gfci/cafci breakers, should the lighting and receptacles be separated. Thank you
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
No kidding? Seems like it would take more wire and energy. Say you have a switch and receptacle 6' away from each other, You'll come from another switch or light from another room to feed the lighting and also a receptacle from another room to feed the receptacle?? Seems like more holes, wire, labor..
There's a difference between adding a switch or receptacle to an existing house, where I'll get power from whatever is nearby unless it needs more capacity, and wiring new construction.. It can take almost as much effort to combine lights and receptacles as to wire them separately. I look at it as a dynamic system, not a static image.

When wiring, for example, the kids' bedroom area, a single 15a circuit is good for three ceiling light/fans, three closet lights, and hallway and bath lights/fans, while a single 20a circuits is enough for three bedrooms and the hallway. The lights are wired from switch to switch from above, and the receptacles are wired from below.

I sometimes get service calls because the bedroom breaker trips while vacuuming, and discover the customer or their home-cleaner is in the habit of having every light in every bedroom on while vacuuming the floors. Lighting and receptacle loads are not the same, not like the old days when lamps were the major plug-in devices.

I also do the same thing in dens, living rooms, and other common areas where there is usually enough lighting load for a lights-only circuit,which is calculable and relatively fixed, and the increased use of home-entertainment electronics and unknown future plug-in equipment suggests a heavier circuit that won't kill the lights.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
I would wire lights and receptacles on the same circuits prior to AFCI with 8-10 openings per circuit. The first CAFCIs tripped at will often enough I started separating them so the semi-annual vacuum use in brother Bobby’s room wouldn’t kill the lights in sister Susie’s. FWIW, the guys finished our annual home last month.
 

sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
I've always separated out receps from lighting, like Larry described. This is how I was trained from my apprenticeship days, and I just continued it when on my own, with mild updates.

As we've added AFCI protection I've found this practice to be even more crucial.
When I have a nuisance tripping AFCI breaker I want to know if it's lighting or receps.
It helps out immensely with the troubleshooting process!
That alone is worth a little bit of extra time and wire on the rough-in!

It's unfortunate that during the rough-in I have to be already planning out troubleshooting strategies for AFCI nuisance tripping! It's as if I'm planning for the breaker to have issues, and what can I do during the rough-in to remedy any future breaker issues.
That's how much I lack confidence in them!
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I've always separated out receps from lighting, like Larry described. This is how I was trained from my apprenticeship days, and I just continued it when on my own, with mild updates.

As we've added AFCI protection I've found this practice to be even more crucial.
When I have a nuisance tripping AFCI breaker I want to know if it's lighting or receps.
It helps out immensely with the troubleshooting process!
That alone is worth a little bit of extra time and wire on the rough-in!

It's unfortunate that during the rough-in I have to be already planning out troubleshooting strategies for AFCI nuisance tripping! It's as if I'm planning for the breaker to have issues, and what can I do during the rough-in to remedy any future breaker issues.
That's how much I lack confidence in them!

Hmmm. Does the breaker trip when the light is turned on? Gee.... must be an issue with the light. No need to separate lights & receps to figure that one out.
Does the breaker trip when you plug in a vacuum cleaner? Must be an issue with the Hoover. No need to separate lights & receps to figure that one out.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
When wiring my own house every room got its own circuit for both lighting and receptacles. For the bedrooms you would end up with 6 to 8 receptacles, ceiling lights, ceiling fan and closet lights on one circuit. Kitchen and dining room would be the exception.
 
Cookie-cutter low-bid homes get lights & receps on the same circuits.

Top-end high$ customs get 'em separated.

Nothing wrong with that, its a free country, however I often do lights and receps on same circuit even in higher end homes. I just dont see what difference it makes.

Organizing circuits for trouble shooting has some merit, however I have had very few problems with AFCI's. I think the vast majority of AFCI problems are them doing their job (although I am not a fan of AFCI). In fact, it seems like organizing circuuts by room would make for easier trouble shooting.

For me, about the only thing that might make me change it up is to provide for window AC's. If the HO wants window AC (or for any number of reasons I think I should be the decider and provide them) I might want to do the receps in 20A. Then due to the increased hassle of using 12 for lights, I will keep lights on a separate 15. However usually I end up just running a dedicated 20A for a window AC and blank it off for final inspection to skip the AFCI .
 

JoeNorm

Senior Member
Location
WA
For the people who mix Lights and receptacles........does this mean you use all 12/2 on 20's or all 14/2 on 15's? I was on a job the other day where the electricians had used 12/2 for lighting and receptacles. I asked about it and they said "yeah, we like carrying only one type of wire on the van." Seemed crazy to me. Economics aside, I hate trying to cram 12/2 into switch boxes.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
With using CAFCI breakers, has it become common practice and advised now to keep lighting circuits separate from receptacle circuits in homes ? Thanks

I have to admit to, I've been out of the loop, afci and gfci, when did this cafci come about? what code cycle is it required? honestly first I heard or read about them. Maybe I should frequent here more

There are two types of arc faults that are detected, series and parallel faults. ~20 years ago when AFCI's first put into code there was only one AFCI device out there and it did not detect both types of faults, though the manufacturers claimed it did. Then only a code cycle or two later they came up with the CAFCI that does detect both types of faults. Code required this combination type as the main rule and other type was only allowed per certain circumstances. Original type for the most part was no longer available so you as an installer never knew any different if not paying attention, other than maybe could have gotten older stock in the mix shortly after the changes.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
For the people who mix Lights and receptacles........does this mean you use all 12/2 on 20's or all 14/2 on 15's? .......

Well, you really can't use 14 on 20s now, can you?

Some people use all 12, but they can cover more outlets with a 20a circuit than they can with 14 on a 15 OCD.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
There are two types of arc faults that are detected, series and parallel faults. ~20 years ago when AFCI's first put into code there was only one AFCI device out there and it did not detect both types of faults, though the manufacturers claimed it did. Then only a code cycle or two later they came up with the CAFCI that does detect both types of faults. Code required this combination type as the main rule and other type was only allowed per certain circumstances. Original type for the most part was no longer available so you as an installer never knew any different if not paying attention, other than maybe could have gotten older stock in the mix shortly after the changes.

Thank you
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
There's a difference between adding a switch or receptacle to an existing house, where I'll get power from whatever is nearby unless it needs more capacity, and wiring new construction.. It can take almost as much effort to combine lights and receptacles as to wire them separately. I look at it as a dynamic system, not a static image.

When wiring, for example, the kids' bedroom area, a single 15a circuit is good for three ceiling light/fans, three closet lights, and hallway and bath lights/fans, while a single 20a circuits is enough for three bedrooms and the hallway. The lights are wired from switch to switch from above, and the receptacles are wired from below.

I sometimes get service calls because the bedroom breaker trips while vacuuming, and discover the customer or their home-cleaner is in the habit of having every light in every bedroom on while vacuuming the floors. Lighting and receptacle loads are not the same, not like the old days when lamps were the major plug-in devices.

I also do the same thing in dens, living rooms, and other common areas where there is usually enough lighting load for a lights-only circuit,which is calculable and relatively fixed, and the increased use of home-entertainment electronics and unknown future plug-in equipment suggests a heavier circuit that won't kill the lights.

Lights don't dim when other items on the receptacles are turned on either, unless it also createss significant drop on service or feeder.

I don't think it takes any significant more material or labor. You will put more receptacles on the 20 amp circuits than you would on a 15 amp circuit. You would put many more lights all on one 15 amp circuit instead of just one circuit per room

Many put one 15 amp circuit to a bedroom. Four bedrooms would be four circuits.

With separate light circuit from 20 amp receptacle circuit I likely put two 20 amp circuits for the receptacles and one 15 amp circuit for lights, and that light circuit probably has capacity to include at least another room or two lighting, I only made three home runs instead of two, and can theoretically run 9000 VA vs 7200. Real world says I probably can get away with one 20 amp receptacle circuit for all 4 bedrooms, and in some cases I may still make 2 home runs but land them on one breaker initially, just in case.
 

sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
Hmmm. Does the breaker trip when the light is turned on? Gee.... must be an issue with the light. No need to separate lights & receps to figure that one out.
Does the breaker trip when you plug in a vacuum cleaner? Must be an issue with the Hoover. No need to separate lights & receps to figure that one out.

Not sure I agree with that simplified perspective...

It's common to have a culmination of events that lead to a nuisance trip, not just one light, or one particular vacuum, but maybe a mixture of the loads. And even then it's not consistent enough to pin down the sequence of events that causes the nuisance trip.

Heck, I had one house recently that was a manufactured home that sat on the foundation for 3-4 years with everything working just fine, then when I went and finished out their basement (requiring added AFCI breakers in the panel) one of the original circuits on the main level, that I hadn't even touched, started nuisance tripping.

Troubleshooting that issue wasn't in the bid even though I resolved it.
 

Knuckle Dragger

Master Electrician Electrical Contractor 01752
Location
Marlborough, Massachusetts USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
When wiring my own house every room got its own circuit for both lighting and receptacles. For the bedrooms you would end up with 6 to 8 receptacles, ceiling lights, ceiling fan and closet lights on one circuit. Kitchen and dining room would be the exception.

That is pretty much my MO when wiring houses especially homes with central air and heat.
I don't believe the 6-13 watts from the LED light will add much load to the circuit to warrant keeping it separate.
IMO when wirin a string of lights to multiple rooms in a house and the CB trips you leave your customer pretty much in the dark. To each his own.
 
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