Misuse of Equipment

[iwire]

BackInTheHabit, this may be helpful to you. I'm not sure, though.

This Bob is jamming. :grin:

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Are you an inspector? :grin:

<JK>

Not an inspector. Not kidding.:grin:

That is something I myself would not do. I feel the proper installation is in a J-box outside of the panelboard.

The photo in the original post is just bad workmanship. (IMHO)

 

[mdshunk]

I do feel it is a violation however, but as of yet cannot back it up with NEC articles. If I find them I will post them.

:grin:

I know how you feel. I run into things all the time that seem like they ought to be a violation. It's amazing how permissive the code actually is when it comes right down to it. Please resist the urge, however, to call unusual installations a violation. Some folks automatically think unusual installation or installations done differently than the local norm must be violations. I think that is the case here. This has hack DIY written all over it, yet there's not really anything you can site that makes it non-compliant. There's plenty of OEM stuff that is intended from the get-go to be mounted in the panel. Submetering CT's are another example that just popped in my head.

 

[mdshunk]

That is something I myself would not do. I feel the proper installation is in a J-box outside of the panelboard.

It's not mounted in or on the panelboard. It's mounted inside the panelboard cabinet, which is functionally no different than any other junction box. You can mount a panelboard inside a Hoffman box, if you want to. Industrial control panel builders often do.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

:grin:

.. Please resist the urge, however, to call unusual installations a violation. ....

I have seen many installations that are a blatant violation. Others I have seen that not quite sure of but my gut says they are.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

It's not mounted in or on the panelboard. It's mounted inside the panelboard cabinet, which is functionally no different than any other junction box. You can mount a panelboard inside a Hoffman box, if you want to. Industrial control panel builders often do.

You are correct. I should have said panelboard cabinet. But the install just "looks bad".

I am trying to correct my definitions as of late anyway.

 

[mdshunk]

But the install just "looks bad"..

I agree. There is a lot of ugly work that is both legal and safe. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a guy that's ever gotten a red tag on the basis of workmanship.

 

[iwire]

Visuals always help

Here is a cabinet as covered by Article 312

This is a panelboard as covered by Article 408, it is missing only the dead front.

Here is a panelboard in a cabinet as covered by Article 312 and 408

 

[mdshunk]

Nobody mounts cutouts in cutout cabinets anymore, but we still use lots of cutout cabinets. We just call them hinged cover junction boxes now.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

I agree. There is a lot of ugly work that is both legal and safe. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a guy that's ever gotten a red tag on the basis of workmanship.

So what's the prupose of NEC 110.12?

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Visuals always help

Here is a cabinet as covered by Article 312

This is a panelboard as covered by Article 408, it is missing only the dead front.

Here is a panelboard in a cabinet as covered by Article 312 and 408

My experiene has mostly been in residential. We called the panelboard a panel and that is what I referenced to. I am having to break away from my bad habits.

I understand now the difference between cabinet, panelboard and panelboard cabinet. Will try to use them accordingly.

 

[mdshunk]

So what's the prupose of NEC 110.12?

What's the definition of pretty? You get the idea. Everyone has a different idea, so it's pretty much a well-intentioned section that is too vague to be enforcable. I have seen it tacked onto a list on a red-tag for a job that has so many violations, the inspector was just piling on everything that might apply to emphasize that the job has serious issues.

 

[iwire]

My experience has mostly been in residential. We called the panelboard a panel

A lot of the manufacturers call those units "Load Centers" which generally means a cabinet, a cover and panelboard packaged as a single part number.


But to the NEC it is still two separate items.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So what's the prupose of NEC 110.12?

Give the fact that the NEC Style Manual says that the words "neat and workmanlike" are vague and unenforceable, that part of 110.12 has no purpose.

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Give the fact that the NEC Style Manual says that the words "neat and workmanlike" are vague and unenforceable, that part of 110.12 has no purpose.

Is there a 2005 or 2008 NEC Style Manual?

Could only find 1999 and 2002.

 

[joe tedesco]

Neat and Workmanlike

Neat and Workmanlike

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/NECSTYLEMAN03.pdf

 

[BackInTheHabit]

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/NECSTYLEMAN03.pdf

Joe,

That link is for the 2003. Has it been updated?

 

[joe tedesco]

http://www.joetedesco.org/VIOLATION.jpg

http://www.joetedesco.org/VIOLATION.jpg

Joe,

That link is for the 2003. Has it been updated?

Probably not, but searching: www.nfpa.org may find a later issue, or call 1-617-770-3000 and ask for the electrical section or NFPA Library.

If not it is the closest to the present, and the subject of neat and workmanlike is not just in 110.12, it is carried through articles in Chapters 6, 7, and 8.

Search the NEC.

I will expand on the original intention of the splice and fill issues in the cabinet, that was a rule that was developed for something entirely different than what some are thinking.

I want to be in attendance at any seminar or meeting, or in front of the IAEI or NFPA NEC committees when an Instructor teaches and argues this issue as vigorously as those here!

 

[BackInTheHabit]

Based on your OP questions, have they been anwered?

 

[joe tedesco]

http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1008865595_2.gif

http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1008865595_2.gif

Based on your OP questions, have they been anwered?

Question: Is this product properly installed, and is it even listed?

NO!

Only some agree and those who don't can have their opinions, but I will stand firm, the issues are real and should not be misunderstood or given other scenarios or facts.

I am talking about the picture here, and the way in which the rules were originally developed and how they are to be interpreted.