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Are microdistilleries considered Class 1 Div1 or Div 2

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    Are microdistilleries considered Class 1 Div1 or Div 2

    In most distillery operations (like the actual distilling) ethanol vapor is only marginally present as long as all gear is operating normally. I would think this makes it a Class 1 Div 2 occupancy. Is this an AHJ determination or has the code figured this one out yet? Since the recent fire at a Micro in NJ I suspect that the industry will be under greater scrutiny. Any experience out there would be helpful
    THX

    #2
    it will generally depend on the level and quality of ventilation. See NFPA 497 for details.
    "Bob"
    Robert B. Alexander, P.E.
    Answers based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by paleoelectronics View Post
      In most distillery operations (like the actual distilling) ethanol vapor is only marginally present as long as all gear is operating normally. I would think this makes it a Class 1 Div 2 occupancy. Is this an AHJ determination or has the code figured this one out yet? Since the recent fire at a Micro in NJ I suspect that the industry will be under greater scrutiny. Any experience out there would be helpful
      THX
      I think whatever the reason for that fire will make a big difference in what if anything gets greater scrutiny as it relates to distillery operations.
      I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

      Comment


        #4
        Might even be a Class II?

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          #5
          Originally posted by MrJLH View Post
          Might even be a Class II?
          And that is because...?
          "Bob"
          Robert B. Alexander, P.E.
          Answers based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by MrJLH View Post
            Might even be a Class II?
            Some processes before the actual distilling process maybe, OP was asking about the actual distilling process.
            I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by MrJLH View Post
              Might even be a Class II?
              Dust hazard?? It's a microdistillery, how much grain do you think they are they processing?

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by paleoelectronics View Post
                In most distillery operations (like the actual distilling) ethanol vapor is only marginally present as long as all gear is operating normally. I would think this makes it a Class 1 Div 2 occupancy. Is this an AHJ determination or has the code figured this one out yet? Since the recent fire at a Micro in NJ I suspect that the industry will be under greater scrutiny. Any experience out there would be helpful
                THX
                i did a lighting cert on a vodka distilllary in LA.
                the actual stills were separate from everything else.

                they were CL1 DIV1

                lights, pumps, everything was under that classification.

                occupancy sensors and dimming controls, theoretically,
                needed to be present. that wasn't gonna happen...
                ~New signature under construction.~
                ~~~~Please excuse the mess.~~~~

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Fulthrotl View Post
                  i did a lighting cert on a vodka distilllary in LA.
                  the actual stills were separate from everything else.

                  they were CL1 DIV1

                  lights, pumps, everything was under that classification.

                  occupancy sensors and dimming controls, theoretically,
                  needed to be present. that wasn't gonna happen...
                  I'm surprised it was Div 1 and not Div 2. Div 1 is for when the hazard is always present (like a dip tank). Div 2 is for when it is infrequently present or present only as a result of containment failure (tank or pipe leak).

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by gadfly56 View Post
                    I'm surprised it was Div 1 and not Div 2. Div 1 is for when the hazard is always present (like a dip tank). Div 2 is for when it is infrequently present or present only as a result of containment failure (tank or pipe leak).
                    Not quite. Read the formal definition in Section 500.5(B)(1)(1). A hazardous atmosphere only needs to be present under normal operation; i.e., it, "... can exist under normal operating
                    conditions." Frequency or faulty operation is not a consideration. I can show a Division 1 location that may never actually be hazardous - the area around a relief vent that never actually "relieves."

                    This is one of the subtle differences between NEC Divisions and "classic" IEC Zones. Your example would be IEC Zone 0. While it would certainly be Division 1, there are several other cases for Division 1. In fact, see Sections 500.5(B)(1)(2) and (3) for cases of frequency or faulty operation.

                    As a side comment, Class II is incredibly unlikely. There is not enough milling of grain in the process to create sufficient "dust".

                    In order to correctly classify a particular still, one needs the full P&IDs, a material balance flow chart with process pressures and temperatures, plot plan, HVAC study, etc. It isn't a trivial activity. NFPA 497 [2017] outlines the usual procedure.
                    "Bob"
                    Robert B. Alexander, P.E.
                    Answers based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by gadfly56 View Post
                      I'm surprised it was Div 1 and not Div 2. Div 1 is for when the hazard is always present (like a dip tank). Div 2 is for when it is infrequently present or present only as a result of containment failure (tank or pipe leak).
                      my understanding, and it's probably inaccurate, as it was learned
                      before the invention of combustion was this:

                      CL1 DIV1 is where explosive vapor may be present during manufacturing, as in a refinery.
                      CL1 DIV2 is where explosive vapor may be present during dispensing, as in a gas station.

                      CL 2 DIV 1&2 are the same, but for flammable liquid only. no vapor present.

                      CL 3 is flammable dust. no liquid or vapor.

                      how far off am i, bob?
                      ~New signature under construction.~
                      ~~~~Please excuse the mess.~~~~

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Fulthrotl View Post
                        my understanding, and it's probably inaccurate, as it was learned
                        before the invention of combustion was this:

                        CL1 DIV1 is where explosive vapor may be present during manufacturing, as in a refinery.
                        CL1 DIV2 is where explosive vapor may be present during dispensing, as in a gas station.

                        CL 2 DIV 1&2 are the same, but for flammable liquid only. no vapor present.

                        CL 3 is flammable dust. no liquid or vapor.

                        how far off am i, bob?
                        Well, pretty far. See Section 500.5 for the basic descriptions.

                        Class I is gases and vapors.
                        Class II is dusts
                        Class III is fibers and flyings.

                        Basically, for Classes I and II (there is a little bit of variation on the themes):

                        Division 1 is based on possibility of volatiles existing under normal operation including maintenance operations and/or concurrent failures where an electrical failure will also result in the release of volatiles.
                        Division 2 is based on abnormal but not catastrophic failures.

                        For Class III there is virtually no difference as can be seen in the installation methods in Article 503.
                        "Bob"
                        Robert B. Alexander, P.E.
                        Answers based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Fulthrotl View Post
                          my understanding, and it's probably inaccurate, as it was learned
                          before the invention of combustion was this:

                          CL1 DIV1 is where explosive vapor may be present during manufacturing, as in a refinery.
                          CL1 DIV2 is where explosive vapor may be present during dispensing, as in a gas station.

                          CL 2 DIV 1&2 are the same, but for flammable liquid only. no vapor present.

                          CL 3 is flammable dust. no liquid or vapor.

                          how far off am i, bob?
                          Found this in [COLOR="#FF0000"]Rockwell's paper[/COLOR] which is pretty good as far as I can tell:

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Class Definition.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	30.0 KB
ID:	2377127

                          and

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Division Definition.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	28.7 KB
ID:	2377128

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by gadfly56 View Post
                            Found this in [COLOR=#ff0000]Rockwell's paper[/COLOR] which is pretty good as far as I can tell:

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]19584[/ATTACH]

                            and

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]19585[/ATTACH]
                            Gee, just like I outlined above
                            "Bob"
                            Robert B. Alexander, P.E.
                            Answers based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by rbalex View Post
                              Gee, just like I outlined above
                              OK, you posted while I was fiddle-fart'n with the PNG's. Sheesh.

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