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Designing control panel and equipment for CLI, DV2 location

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    Designing control panel and equipment for CLI, DV2 location

    Hello. I've returned to a field that requires some hazardous location design. I struggle trying to use the NEC book to understand anything at times. Basically- we have a skid that is determined to be in a CLI,DV2 environment. A remote I/O panel will be located on the skid. The intent was to have a Nema 4X box with all internal components listed for CLI,DV2 (Basically PLC I/O modules). On the skid there will be a mix of pressure/temp xmtrs and solenoid valves (most likely CLI,DV1 rated).

    My questions would be:
    Is the Nema 4x panel with all CLI,DV2 components acceptable to be on the skid? Can i have a supply fuse?
    What rating do the devices need to be on skid? I understand CLI,DV1 would be acceptable but not needed for DV2. Would I try to use Non Incendive devices or design? If so- how do I find out exactly what is required? Are barriers required for NI or just IS? Typically we use RTD's with a transmitter in the head (PR 5333D).
    Where can I go for training to learn the correct methods of hazardous location design?

    Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


    Dave

    #2
    Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
    Hello. I've returned to a field that requires some hazardous location design. I struggle trying to use the NEC book to understand anything at times. Basically- we have a skid that is determined to be in a CLI,DV2 environment. A remote I/O panel will be located on the skid. The intent was to have a Nema 4X box with all internal components listed for CLI,DV2 (Basically PLC I/O modules). On the skid there will be a mix of pressure/temp xmtrs and solenoid valves (most likely CLI,DV1 rated).

    My questions would be:
    Is the Nema 4x panel with all CLI,DV2 components acceptable to be on the skid? Can i have a supply fuse?
    What rating do the devices need to be on skid? I understand CLI,DV1 would be acceptable but not needed for DV2. Would I try to use Non Incendive devices or design? If so- how do I find out exactly what is required? Are barriers required for NI or just IS? Typically we use RTD's with a transmitter in the head (PR 5333D).
    Where can I go for training to learn the correct methods of hazardous location design?

    Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


    Dave
    If it is a C1D2 area, why would you need C1D1 field devices? It is not a code violation but not usually necessary.

    NI is a design technique and does not require anything extra to meet C1D2 requirements.

    Maybe you should see if you can find someone who has some expertise in this area to guide you. I find it uncomfortable when people are trying to design this kind of thing by a committee of semi-anonymous Internet posters. There is nothing wrong with questions but the problem is that until you know most of the answers you probably won't know what questions to even ask. That is one reason why the forum does not answer DIY questions.
    Bob

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by petersonra View Post
      If it is a C1D2 area, why would you need C1D1 field devices? It is not a code violation but not usually necessary.
      We typically standardize on the valves for both DV1 & DV2 so we can use on either.


      Originally posted by petersonra View Post
      Maybe you should see if you can find someone who has some expertise in this area to guide you. I find it uncomfortable when people are trying to design this kind of thing by a committee of semi-anonymous Internet posters. There is nothing wrong with questions but the problem is that until you know most of the answers you probably won't know what questions to even ask. That is one reason why the forum does not answer DIY questions.
      I do not intend to design by committee rather get some feedback on this type of system. This would enable both more intelligent questions and an understanding of what to research in the NEC code book.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
        We typically standardize on the valves for both DV1 & DV2 so we can use on either.



        I do not intend to design by committee rather get some feedback on this type of system. This would enable both more intelligent questions and an understanding of what to research in the NEC code book.
        While the NEC is involved, it is really not something you can "research in the NEC code book". the code is an installation standard, and not something that tells you how to design anything.
        Bob

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
          Is the Nema 4x panel with all CLI,DV2 components acceptable to be on the skid?
          Probably, but it depends on what you're doing.

          Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
          Can i have a supply fuse?
          Again, depends on what you're doing.

          Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
          What rating do the devices need to be on skid?
          You answered your own question, as the minimum rating for the components would be Div 2.

          Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
          I understand CLI,DV1 would be acceptable but not needed for DV2.
          Yes, correct.

          Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
          Would I try to use Non Incendive devices or design?
          Yes, non-incendive would work - provided the components you are buying are intended to be non-incendive.

          Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
          Are barriers required for NI or just IS? Typically we use RTD's with a transmitter in the head (PR 5333D).
          Again, depends on what you are doing.

          Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
          Where can I go for training to learn the correct methods of hazardous location design?
          I would recommend a design consultancy. There are a few out there that can help you sort out what you have, what you need, and how to make the two the same thing.

          I would not recommend engaging with an agency (i.e. UL). Most do their best to avoid assisting OEMs with design due to conflict of interest problems. And those that do offer design help charge a lot of money for their brand. A private consultant is usually a better value.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by IntrinsicSafety View Post
            Yes, non-incendive would work - provided the components you are buying are intended to be non-incendive.
            Thank you very much for your feedback. I am currently looking into some local companies that can help us in this area. I guess where I get confused is where a control diagram will list a device as "Nonincendive Field Wiring for CI, Div 2 Groups A,B,C,D? What "exactly" does that mean? Does the installation of these devices always have to be installed using the entity parameters?

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
              Thank you very much for your feedback. I am currently looking into some local companies that can help us in this area. I guess where I get confused is where a control diagram will list a device as "Nonincendive Field Wiring for CI, Div 2 Groups A,B,C,D? What "exactly" does that mean? Does the installation of these devices always have to be installed using the entity parameters?
              Basically it just means follow the manufacturers instructions on how to install and wire it. Nothing real complicated.
              Bob

              Comment


                #8
                Isn't this more of a UL listing question than an NEC question?
                Moderator-Washington State
                Ancora Imparo

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by tom baker View Post
                  Isn't this more of a UL listing question than an NEC question?
                  Yes, but there are quite a few regulars here knowledgeable in control panel design.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
                    I guess where I get confused is where a control diagram will list a device as "Nonincendive Field Wiring for CI, Div 2 Groups A,B,C,D? What "exactly" does that mean?
                    I think you mean the device >requires< nonincendive field wiring.

                    Regardless:

                    "Nonincendive Field Wiring": means that the device in question has to be supplied from a power source that has been certified (listed) to meet the entity parameters. If you don't do that, the device may work, but it will no longer be considered non-incendive, meaning it will no longer be legitimate to use it in the hazardous location.

                    I assume you know what "CI, D2, Groups A,B,C,D" means. If not, I highly recommend you get expert help.


                    Originally posted by dgalenski@glauber.com View Post
                    Does the installation of these devices always have to be installed using the entity parameters?
                    If you want them to be legitimate to use in the Division 2 location, yes. If you want to use them in a non-hazardous location, no.

                    Comment

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