open wiring
- Thread starter rrhea
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: open wiring
All acceptable wiring methods for Division 2 are listed in [2002] 501.4(B). None of them, with the possible exception of 501.4(B)(4), would find the installation you have described compliant.
Even if 501.4(B)(4) does apply there is an lot of documentation necessary that you don't appear to have.
All acceptable wiring methods for Division 2 are listed in [2002] 501.4(B). None of them, with the possible exception of 501.4(B)(4), would find the installation you have described compliant.
Even if 501.4(B)(4) does apply there is an lot of documentation necessary that you don't appear to have.
justdavemamm
Senior Member
- Location
- Rochester NY
Re: open wiring
Please define "open wire".
We have done Class 1 Div II installations where cables are not enclosed in neither tray, conduit or sealtite and run up to 30 ft., attached to steel beams.
They are Non-Incendive devices that are wired.
The cables are rated for the area. In this case it's Foundation Field Bus and AS-i Bus with Turk (aka InterlinkBT) cables & junction T's. Voltage is 24vdc.
Perhaps your transmitter (pressure ?) is rated N.I. ?
What's a 'CGB' ?
Please define "open wire".
We have done Class 1 Div II installations where cables are not enclosed in neither tray, conduit or sealtite and run up to 30 ft., attached to steel beams.
They are Non-Incendive devices that are wired.
The cables are rated for the area. In this case it's Foundation Field Bus and AS-i Bus with Turk (aka InterlinkBT) cables & junction T's. Voltage is 24vdc.
Perhaps your transmitter (pressure ?) is rated N.I. ?
What's a 'CGB' ?
Re: open wiring
JUSTDAVEMAMM;
CGB, CGD, CGE and CGK cord and cable
fittings are installed to:
_ provide means for passing a cord, cable
(unarmored) or flexible conduit into an
enclosure, through a bulkhead or into a rigid
conduit
_ form a seal for cord or unarmored round
cables
_ form a secure connection or termination for
flexible cord, cable (unarmored), or flexible
conduit
JUSTDAVEMAMM;
CGB, CGD, CGE and CGK cord and cable
fittings are installed to:
_ provide means for passing a cord, cable
(unarmored) or flexible conduit into an
enclosure, through a bulkhead or into a rigid
conduit
_ form a seal for cord or unarmored round
cables
_ form a secure connection or termination for
flexible cord, cable (unarmored), or flexible
conduit
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: open wiring
Well, now you are describing a serious problem and no amount of documentation will get you past it. This is especially bad if the PLC is also in the Division 2 location.
I generally try to ?play down? Division 2 because ignitable gases are not normally present; but this is one case where you are describing an accident waiting to happen because you now have a virtually constant electrical source of ignition (the PLC).
I refer you to both Charlie B?s analogy and aphorism here.
The only thing I can see that would make this acceptable is that it was over-classified in the first place.
[ May 19, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
Well, now you are describing a serious problem and no amount of documentation will get you past it. This is especially bad if the PLC is also in the Division 2 location.
I generally try to ?play down? Division 2 because ignitable gases are not normally present; but this is one case where you are describing an accident waiting to happen because you now have a virtually constant electrical source of ignition (the PLC).
I refer you to both Charlie B?s analogy and aphorism here.
The only thing I can see that would make this acceptable is that it was over-classified in the first place.
[ May 19, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
Re: open wiring
I should have included that the PLC is listed class 1 Div 2.
The reason I posted this topic is because I am having a difficult time trying to explain to the people that hired me. They are talking to the venders of the prewired skids for this project who claim everything is in compliant. Just thought someone might be aware of something new.
Thanks Again
I should have included that the PLC is listed class 1 Div 2.
The reason I posted this topic is because I am having a difficult time trying to explain to the people that hired me. They are talking to the venders of the prewired skids for this project who claim everything is in compliant. Just thought someone might be aware of something new.
Thanks Again
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: open wiring
Now we're back to determining if the circuit is rated nonincendive. I got the impression from rrhea's second reply that it wasn't.
If the PLC and it's I/O are rated for Division 2 then it is likely that the circuit in question is nonincendive. If so, and the skid vendor is claiming everything is compliant they need to produce the control document(s) required by 501.4(B)(3)and 500.2 (definition of "Control Drawing'). These are part of the 500.4(A) General Documentation requirements.
If, however the circuit is indeed NOT nonincendive, it is a violation in itself, and I don't see how the PLC I/O could be either.
Edit Add: I see my original post cited the wrong section, 501.4(B)(4) rather than 501.4(B)(3)
Sorry.
[ May 20, 2005, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
Now we're back to determining if the circuit is rated nonincendive. I got the impression from rrhea's second reply that it wasn't.
If the PLC and it's I/O are rated for Division 2 then it is likely that the circuit in question is nonincendive. If so, and the skid vendor is claiming everything is compliant they need to produce the control document(s) required by 501.4(B)(3)and 500.2 (definition of "Control Drawing'). These are part of the 500.4(A) General Documentation requirements.
If, however the circuit is indeed NOT nonincendive, it is a violation in itself, and I don't see how the PLC I/O could be either.
Edit Add: I see my original post cited the wrong section, 501.4(B)(4) rather than 501.4(B)(3)
Sorry.[ May 20, 2005, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
Re: open wiring
See if this could apply:
NEC'05 article #396
-396.10(a)(Cable types)
-396.10(c)Hazardous(Classified)Locations.
QUOTE: Messenger supported wiring shall be permitted to be used in hazardous (classified)locations where the contained cables are permitted for such use in 501.10, 502.10 ,503.10 and 504.20...(now going beyond test question)
501.10(b)Class1,Division2
501.10(b)(6)TC cable w/ termination fittings
501.105(b)
OK,ready to take my punches, if being wrong.
[ May 20, 2005, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
I've been watching your post,and you asked for " any exception ".. I had this in a test question as far as " open wiring " in Hazardous Locations.And I did have to really dig, extensive to find it in test..
See if this could apply:
NEC'05 article #396
-396.10(a)(Cable types)
-396.10(c)Hazardous(Classified)Locations.
QUOTE: Messenger supported wiring shall be permitted to be used in hazardous (classified)locations where the contained cables are permitted for such use in 501.10, 502.10 ,503.10 and 504.20...(now going beyond test question)
501.10(b)Class1,Division2
501.10(b)(6)TC cable w/ termination fittings
501.105(b)
OK,ready to take my punches, if being wrong.
[ May 20, 2005, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: open wiring
dillon3c
I'm sorry I haven't gotten back sooner on this. I've been out of Internet contact the last few days.
I'm not sure which punches you would expect to take. The reformatting of the various Chapter 5 Articles didn't change the rules(much). Essentially, TC, MC, ITC, etc. with appropriate termination fittings are "wiring methods" as well as "cable types." This is what 501.10(B)(6) is dealing with and it is the "appropriate termination fittings" that make it suitable. This is similar conceptually to the stress relief and other requirements for flexible cords described in 501.140 especially 501.140(B)(3) and (4)
If the PLC I/O in the originally described system is actually nonincendive and installed ?in accordance with the control drawings? per 501.10(B)(3) the then the wiring is acceptable. If it is not, then the cable type must be one of those listed in 501.10(B)(4) or (5) and the connector contacts must be found acceptable under 501.105(B)(1) or it?s exception. I doubt the connector would meet the requirements.
[ May 23, 2005, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
dillon3c
I'm sorry I haven't gotten back sooner on this. I've been out of Internet contact the last few days.
I'm not sure which punches you would expect to take. The reformatting of the various Chapter 5 Articles didn't change the rules(much). Essentially, TC, MC, ITC, etc. with appropriate termination fittings are "wiring methods" as well as "cable types." This is what 501.10(B)(6) is dealing with and it is the "appropriate termination fittings" that make it suitable. This is similar conceptually to the stress relief and other requirements for flexible cords described in 501.140 especially 501.140(B)(3) and (4)
If the PLC I/O in the originally described system is actually nonincendive and installed ?in accordance with the control drawings? per 501.10(B)(3) the then the wiring is acceptable. If it is not, then the cable type must be one of those listed in 501.10(B)(4) or (5) and the connector contacts must be found acceptable under 501.105(B)(1) or it?s exception. I doubt the connector would meet the requirements.
[ May 23, 2005, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
Re: open wiring
I have another question along the same lines.
Type MV/TC cable in a tray, entering a class 1 div. 2 location. Terminated with what they say are fittings listed for the location. I am saying the cable must have a type HL listing or be in conduit. Any comments?
Thanks
I have another question along the same lines.
Type MV/TC cable in a tray, entering a class 1 div. 2 location. Terminated with what they say are fittings listed for the location. I am saying the cable must have a type HL listing or be in conduit. Any comments?
Thanks
Re: open wiring
2005 NEC
501.15(b)(2)
Exception (2)
Exception (3)
2002NEC
501.5(B)(2)
Exception (2)
Exception (3)
: of the "HL Cable listed requirement".. I see it required for Class 1 Division 1 locations.
I don't see it denoted as being listing requirement, in Class 1 Division 2 locations
[ May 24, 2005, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
2005 NEC
501.15(b)(2)
Exception (2)
Exception (3)
2002NEC
501.5(B)(2)
Exception (2)
Exception (3)
: of the "HL Cable listed requirement".. I see it required for Class 1 Division 1 locations.
I don't see it denoted as being listing requirement, in Class 1 Division 2 locations
[ May 24, 2005, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
Re: open wiring
Byron,
Not sure what you are considering a Class 1 Div 2 enclosure. In many instances a general purpose enclosure can be used in Div 2. In this case, I believe any standard cable connector could be installed. If you are talking about an explosion-proof enclosure, then I'm not sure of what the best method would be - possible transition to conduit and install an EYS-style fitting.
Nearly all of the hazardous installations I deal with are rigid conduit. Others like rbalex can probably give a more helpful response regarding specific fittings for tray cable installations in these areas.
Byron,
Not sure what you are considering a Class 1 Div 2 enclosure. In many instances a general purpose enclosure can be used in Div 2. In this case, I believe any standard cable connector could be installed. If you are talking about an explosion-proof enclosure, then I'm not sure of what the best method would be - possible transition to conduit and install an EYS-style fitting.
Nearly all of the hazardous installations I deal with are rigid conduit. Others like rbalex can probably give a more helpful response regarding specific fittings for tray cable installations in these areas.
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: open wiring
nhee is correct that there are no enclosures rated specifically for Division 2, although there are some types of hazardous location equipment, such as some lighting fixtures, that may only have a Division 2 rating.
As a general rule in Division 2, cables listed in [2002] 501.4(B)(4) through (6) as wiring methods may be installed per their appropriate Chapter 3 Article or Articles 725 or 727 as applicable. The only additional requirements, as wiring methods, are detailed in the referenced subsections [501.4(B)(4) through (6)] and usually calls for additional attention to tensile stress. This does NOT necessarily require special termination fittings beyond what would already be required in ordinary locations for abrasion; only that tensile stress (pull-out) is given special attention.
The significant termination requirements, as cables, are described in [2002] 501.5(E)(1). Unless the enclosure is required to be explosion proof there are no additional requirements beyond those listed in 501.4(B)(4) through (6). If the enclosure is required to be explosion proof, Section 501.5(E)(1) describes the methods necessary to maintain the integrity of the enclosure.
nhee is correct that there are no enclosures rated specifically for Division 2, although there are some types of hazardous location equipment, such as some lighting fixtures, that may only have a Division 2 rating.
As a general rule in Division 2, cables listed in [2002] 501.4(B)(4) through (6) as wiring methods may be installed per their appropriate Chapter 3 Article or Articles 725 or 727 as applicable. The only additional requirements, as wiring methods, are detailed in the referenced subsections [501.4(B)(4) through (6)] and usually calls for additional attention to tensile stress. This does NOT necessarily require special termination fittings beyond what would already be required in ordinary locations for abrasion; only that tensile stress (pull-out) is given special attention.
The significant termination requirements, as cables, are described in [2002] 501.5(E)(1). Unless the enclosure is required to be explosion proof there are no additional requirements beyond those listed in 501.4(B)(4) through (6). If the enclosure is required to be explosion proof, Section 501.5(E)(1) describes the methods necessary to maintain the integrity of the enclosure.
Re: open wiring
Hi Bob,
Using 2002 NEC:
501.5(E)(1) directs you to 501.5(B)(1) (if explosion-proof enclosure) 501.5(B)(1) directs you to 501.5(A)(1) and 501.5(A)(3), which both deal with conduit seals.
Is there any NEC-compliant method to seal/terminate a cable entering an explosion-proof enclosure in a Div 2 area without using an EYS (or similar) fitting? What if MC-HL cable and a Terminator style gland were used? Reading this section, it is not specifically permitted in a Div 2 location, even though it is specifically permitted in a Div 1 location.
Trying to educate myself, as My experience is conduit/fittings rather than cable.
Hi Bob,
Using 2002 NEC:
501.5(E)(1) directs you to 501.5(B)(1) (if explosion-proof enclosure) 501.5(B)(1) directs you to 501.5(A)(1) and 501.5(A)(3), which both deal with conduit seals.
Is there any NEC-compliant method to seal/terminate a cable entering an explosion-proof enclosure in a Div 2 area without using an EYS (or similar) fitting? What if MC-HL cable and a Terminator style gland were used? Reading this section, it is not specifically permitted in a Div 2 location, even though it is specifically permitted in a Div 1 location.
Trying to educate myself, as My experience is conduit/fittings rather than cable.
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