Lighting control for retail store electrical design(Really need help)

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David Christian

Member
Location
Fremont, CA, USA
Hi guys,

I am a graduate electrical engineer and I work in CA as an electrical engineer. I have a project this week. I need your help to give me advice for lighting control.

As in CA, we also need to follow the requirement of Title 24. The scope of my project is as follows.

This is a retail store project.
The voltage of existing lamps is 277V and the existing MEP plan use time control panel. Panel H1 feed the whole existing lighting. The size of Panel H1 is 250 Amps, 277/480V, 3 phase, 4 wires.

But based on Title 24 requirement, I get puzzled whether I need to use occupancy sensor or dimmer to make lighting control design. For retail store lighting design, may you give me some advice and example?

Thanks a lot!
 
mgookin

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
We have a Title 24 analyst on here. He does state certifications. It's good you asked first because bad (expensive) things happen to those who don't!

He often is on in the evenings because he works in the field during the day. Hang in there. He'll see the post and jump right in.

Welcome to the forum!
 
Fulthrotl

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Location
HB, CA (19 Hrs. 22 Min. from Winged Horses)
Occupation
E
David Christian said:
Hi guys,

I am a graduate electrical engineer and I work in CA as an electrical engineer. I have a project this week. I need your help to give me advice for lighting control.

As in CA, we also need to follow the requirement of Title 24. The scope of my project is as follows.

This is a retail store project.
The voltage of existing lamps is 277V and the existing MEP plan use time control panel. Panel H1 feed the whole existing lighting. The size of Panel H1 is 250 Amps, 277/480V, 3 phase, 4 wires.

But based on Title 24 requirement, I get puzzled whether I need to use occupancy sensor or dimmer to make lighting control design. For retail store lighting design, may you give me some advice and example?

Thanks a lot!
Click to expand...

some parameters:

is this a renovation to existing, permitted work?
are the fixtures changing? what percentage of the install is changing?
existing lights title 20 listed?
how many square feet?
glazing to outside sunlight? mall glass doesn't count.

there's a ton of stuff to comply with at the design stage.
you've got your load calcs, and what is permitted in
watts per sq. ft.

yeah, you need dimming. you'll need occupancy sensors,
mostly in restrooms, back of store, etc.

all lights must be controlled by occ sensors, or a title 20
listed timeclock. 365 day astronomical mandatory.

main thing you need to do, is get an acceptance technician
on board, to make sure you can get things certified when
it's built.

i've a number of EE's i work with. i'll get preliminary drawings,
give them a quick peek, say that yeah, it looks good, or no,
it sucks, and then they will proceed from there.

there is a break point at 10,000 sq. ft.
demand response is required at that point.

if you go above 10% change in the install, it normally throws the
entire project into compliance mode.

sent me a PM with your contact info if you wish. a brief reply on
an online forum is not going to get you where you need to be.

don't draw something that can't be certified. if you are working
in the nLight hardware environment, things will usually turn
out well, unless you crater the design. even if you make a mistake,
correction is less onerous. you really don't want to take your errors
and omissions insurance for a test drive with lighting controls...
i've currently got over 15 jobs that are back in the EE's office for
revisions to make them compliant.

this includes four that are complete, and can't be certified without
significant changes. like an 11,000 square foot office space that was
put in stand alone in each control area, neglecting a backbone to
accommodate demand response.
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
David Christian said:
Hi guys,

I am a graduate electrical engineer and I work in CA as an electrical engineer. I have a project this week. I need your help to give me advice for lighting control.

As in CA, we also need to follow the requirement of Title 24. The scope of my project is as follows.

This is a retail store project.
The voltage of existing lamps is 277V and the existing MEP plan use time control panel. Panel H1 feed the whole existing lighting. The size of Panel H1 is 250 Amps, 277/480V, 3 phase, 4 wires.

But based on Title 24 requirement, I get puzzled whether I need to use occupancy sensor or dimmer to make lighting control design. For retail store lighting design, may you give me some advice and example?
Every "area" of the store being altered will require a control. Not all areas require the same control.
Then there is damand response if you go over the threshold.


Thanks a lot!
Click to expand...

If you are getting your feet into this type of work that involves CA energy code I would like to suggest you sign up for some free or small fee classes put on by the utility companies such as SCE and PG&E.
They have really great classes. Also there is Energycodeace.com they have tutorials and online classes.

At the least you should read through the energy code compliance manuals. Q&A
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Fulthrotl said:
that's mean. you KNOW reading that crap will turn his brain to tapioca pudding.
165 pages of this? he's new, for god's sake.... you're going to KILL the man!

Click to expand...

I'm sorry ......:cry:

My brain has been tapioca for a while now so I figured if this guy wants to do commercial lighting then break him in quickly.


Actually the I said look at the compliance manual and the Q&A.
 
D

David Christian

Member
Location
Fremont, CA, USA
mgookin said:
We have a Title 24 analyst on here. He does state certifications. It's good you asked first because bad (expensive) things happen to those who don't!

He often is on in the evenings because he works in the field during the day. Hang in there. He'll see the post and jump right in.

Welcome to the forum!
Click to expand...


Thanks a lot! As I really like power engineering field and do not want to design bad lighting system. For retail store, I aim to study Title 24 first and I really need some former project examples for me to have a clear design thought. I will really appreciate you if you can send private message about this Title 24 analyst, maybe I can ask my boss and invite him to give us a brief lecture on it.

Thanks.
 
D

David Christian

Member
Location
Fremont, CA, USA
Sierrasparky said:
If you are getting your feet into this type of work that involves CA energy code I would like to suggest you sign up for some free or small fee classes put on by the utility companies such as SCE and PG&E.
They have really great classes. Also there is Energycodeace.com they have tutorials and online classes.

At the least you should read through the energy code compliance manuals. Q&A
Click to expand...


Thanks for your advice. I am studying title 24 at the weekend. Yeah, I need to read through energy code compliance manuals. Thanks a lot!
 
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