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    #31
    Originally posted by Besoeker View Post
    Nobody use wireless doorbells here? Mine cost around the equivalent of $10 or less. If they fail, other than for battery replacement, I'd just check 'em in the bin.
    True wireless door bell is the barking variety.

    I haven't been to many places with electronic wireless doorbells where anyone answers the door after pressing the button - knock on the door and they answer. Maybe they just need batteries, but are worthless if they never work.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by kwired View Post
      True wireless door bell is the barking variety.

      I haven't been to many places with electronic wireless doorbells where anyone answers the door after pressing the button - knock on the door and they answer. Maybe they just need batteries, but are worthless if they never work.
      We have the barking variety too. He also alerts us to the phone ringing and is an excellent intruder alarm.

      But I take your point about the batteries.
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by kwired View Post

        Can't say I know any more about how your controller works, but apparently that AC signal starts the ring process, and possibly presence of the pulsing DC signal allows the programmed ring cycle to continue. Maybe if you took the diode off, you would have to press and hold the button to keep the chime playing.
        The diode in parallel with the button provides a constant DC to the chime that can be fed through another diode facing the same way or better yet, a FWB, filtered and used to constantly power the electronics.

        Pressing the button shunts the diode at the back of the button and sends full AC to the chime. A diode, connected in opposite polarity to the one at the button located in the chime off the button "switched" will provide a DC pulse whenever the button is pushed and that is used to trigger the chime. This simply allows the existing wires from the button to the doorbell to the transformer to be used without modification.

        -Hal

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by hbiss View Post
          The diode in parallel with the button provides a constant DC to the chime that can be fed through another diode facing the same way or better yet, a FWB, filtered and used to constantly power the electronics.

          Pressing the button shunts the diode at the back of the button and sends full AC to the chime. A diode, connected in opposite polarity to the one at the button located in the chime off the button "switched" will provide a DC pulse whenever the button is pushed and that is used to trigger the chime. This simply allows the existing wires from the button to the doorbell to the transformer to be used without modification.

          -Hal
          Seems the modification is you need to add the diode. I don't see why they can't build the unit so that all you need is a pair to a switch that is a trigger for the chime.

          But then old garage door openers used to use a simple dry contact for a wall control but most new ones must be compatible with the operator anymore. Makes some sense if it has extra functions being carried over just one pair, but even a simple single button won't work anymore if it isn't the right unit to go with the opener They call that security features - IMO if someone is already inside the garage - so what? I can understand better security that is built into the wireless remotes/receivers that wasn't there in the past.
          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by kwired View Post
            Seems the modification is you need to add the diode. I don't see why they can't build the unit so that all you need is a pair to a switch that is a trigger for the chime.

            But then old garage door openers used to use a simple dry contact for a wall control but most new ones must be compatible with the operator anymore. Makes some sense if it has extra functions being carried over just one pair, but even a simple single button won't work anymore if it isn't the right unit to go with the opener They call that security features - IMO if someone is already inside the garage - so what? I can understand better security that is built into the wireless remotes/receivers that wasn't there in the past.
            You could use a switch leg to the button and a constant feed from the transformer to the chime. Fine for new construction, but old work may not give you the three or four wires you need at the chime location.
            You often have two wires from transformer to chime and two from transformer to button.
            The diode circuit allows you to work with that.

            Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
            Last edited by GoldDigger; 05-05-18, 07:03 PM.

            Comment


              #36
              Might be helpful to read the manual.

              Make sure the circular light on the front of your Ring is
              glowing white to confirm that it’s wired correctly.

              If your internal doorbell is digital (which means it
              produces a synthesized melody), make sure you
              installed the provided diode.
              If you have installed the diode, it may be installed
              backwards. Simply reverse the wiring on the back of
              your Ring Doorbell and press the front button again.

              If your internal doorbell is mechanical (which means
              it has a physical bell and makes a classic “ding dong”
              sound), then make sure you didn’t install the diode.

              Visit ring.com/diode for installation assistance.
              MANUAL

              SUPPORT

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
                You could use a switch leg to the button and a constant feed from the transformer to the chime. Fine for new construction, but old work may not give you the three or four wires you need at the chime location.
                You often have two wires from transformer to chime and two from transformer to button.
                The diode circuit allows you to work with that.

                Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
                People around here (that know what they are doing) have always run a feed from transformer to chime and switch leg to the button, often have two door setup and run second switch leg also from the chime.

                It is the HO's and handymen that foul things up by running from transformer to button and then to chime - usually with no room to make any connections at the button

                Bad enough with just a two wire cable at button anymore because with spray foam insulation that wire won't push in or pull out anymore - used to depend on leaving extra wire and pushing it in the wall after making up the button, sure makes future button servicing/change out easier. Am considering making some sort of pocket in the wall so after they insulate there is still a void to push cable into. Might even work to just nail a device box with opening right against the wall sheathing but not cutting it out. They can foam it all they want.
                I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                Comment


                  #38
                  180505-2005 EDT

                  So far I have seen no explanation of why anything other than a SPST spring return pushbutton is required other than for some special system. The special system may be for the sole purpose to sell an expensive pushbutton. A signaling device, whether a buzzer or electronic, does not require anything other than a switch closure unless the load current is too high.

                  Further most doorbells are not used by the person wanting your attention because most don't work.

                  My pushbuttons and bell work, but still many people still knock.

                  .

                  Comment


                    #39
                    180505-2259

                    Besoeker:

                    Some of my neighbors have video doorbells with voice communication.

                    .

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by gar View Post
                      180505-2259

                      Besoeker:

                      Some of my neighbors have video doorbells with voice communication.

                      .
                      The sticky part is finding ones that interface to remote door latches.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        180505-2351 EDT

                        minesh21:

                        I ran some experiments on two different small transformers. Continued from earlier post.

                        The second one is a, within last 20 years, Signal Transformer 341--6-20 120 V in and 20 V out rated at 30 VA. Single primary coil and center tapped secondary designed for DC power supplies. The iron core is smaller than the NuTone yet VA is 1.5 times that of the NuTone. Also a split bobbin coil is used. The EI core on the outside reads 2.28" x 1.88" x 1.05" vs 2.63" x 2.21" x 0.94" for the NuTone.

                        21.6 vs 57.2 ohms is primary DC resistance.
                        1.0 vs 3.0 ohms is secondary DC resistance. 25.4 is estimate of secondary reflected to primary. Thus, expect about 47 ohms as total seen at primary with secondary shorted.

                        Using a Kill-A-Watt EZ and a Fluke 27 the measurements were:

                        Open secondary with no load,
                        120.1 V, 0.05 A, 2.0 W, 6.7 VA, 0.29 PF, secondary 23.8 V, compared to
                        119.8 V, 0.02 A, 1.4 W, 2.6 VA, 0.53 PF, secondary 26.4 V.

                        Shorted secondary with reduced input voltage. 70 V is about lowest with EZ.
                        Internal impedance of this transformer is too low to run at 70 V with secondary shorted.
                        The NuTone was
                        70.0 V, 0.55 A, 38 W, 38 VA, 1.00 PF. Apparrent input resistance 127 ohms.

                        With nominal 120 V input and various secondary loads:
                        15.4 ohms ---
                        120.0 V, 0.28 A, 34.1 W, 34.5 VA, 0.98 PF, secondary 21.5 V.
                        ............... --- load power 30.0 W, eff is 88%.
                        ............... --- Approx source impedance of sec 2.3/(21.5/15.4) = 1.65 ohms.
                        ............... --- Reflected to input about 41.8 ohms.

                        12.1 ohms ---
                        120.0 V, 0.34 A, 40.9 W, 40.9 VA, 0.98 PF, secondary 20.9 V.
                        ............... --- load power 36.1 W, eff is 88%.
                        ............... --- Approx source impedance of sec 2.9/(20.9/12.1) = 1.68 ohms.
                        ............... --- Reflected to input about 42.7 ohms.

                        This transformer was designed to have a much lower internal impedance. as it should be, because one wants minimum output voltage variation with load in a DC voltage power supply.

                        .

                        Comment


                          #42
                          180506-0957 EDT

                          minesh21:

                          In an ordinary iron cored power transformer with one primary and one secondary coil why is the secondary DC resistance approximately equal to the primary DC resistance divided by the square of the primary to secondary turns ratio?

                          .

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by steve_p View Post
                            I had one job where I needed to install a 30va transformer for the Ring to work.
                            Yup I installed the ring and it can't power up with only 10VA (my existing transformer). So I need to upgrade to the 30VA.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by gar View Post
                              180505-2351 EDT

                              minesh21:

                              I ran some experiments on two different small transformers. Continued from earlier post.

                              The second one is a, within last 20 years, Signal Transformer 341--6-20 120 V in and 20 V out rated at 30 VA. Single primary coil and center tapped secondary designed for DC power supplies. The iron core is smaller than the NuTone yet VA is 1.5 times that of the NuTone. Also a split bobbin coil is used. The EI core on the outside reads 2.28" x 1.88" x 1.05" vs 2.63" x 2.21" x 0.94" for the NuTone.

                              21.6 vs 57.2 ohms is primary DC resistance.
                              1.0 vs 3.0 ohms is secondary DC resistance. 25.4 is estimate of secondary reflected to primary. Thus, expect about 47 ohms as total seen at primary with secondary shorted.

                              Using a Kill-A-Watt EZ and a Fluke 27 the measurements were:

                              Open secondary with no load,
                              120.1 V, 0.05 A, 2.0 W, 6.7 VA, 0.29 PF, secondary 23.8 V, compared to
                              119.8 V, 0.02 A, 1.4 W, 2.6 VA, 0.53 PF, secondary 26.4 V.

                              Shorted secondary with reduced input voltage. 70 V is about lowest with EZ.
                              Internal impedance of this transformer is too low to run at 70 V with secondary shorted.
                              The NuTone was
                              70.0 V, 0.55 A, 38 W, 38 VA, 1.00 PF. Apparrent input resistance 127 ohms.

                              With nominal 120 V input and various secondary loads:
                              15.4 ohms ---
                              120.0 V, 0.28 A, 34.1 W, 34.5 VA, 0.98 PF, secondary 21.5 V.
                              ............... --- load power 30.0 W, eff is 88%.
                              ............... --- Approx source impedance of sec 2.3/(21.5/15.4) = 1.65 ohms.
                              ............... --- Reflected to input about 41.8 ohms.

                              12.1 ohms ---
                              120.0 V, 0.34 A, 40.9 W, 40.9 VA, 0.98 PF, secondary 20.9 V.
                              ............... --- load power 36.1 W, eff is 88%.
                              ............... --- Approx source impedance of sec 2.9/(20.9/12.1) = 1.68 ohms.
                              ............... --- Reflected to input about 42.7 ohms.

                              This transformer was designed to have a much lower internal impedance. as it should be, because one wants minimum output voltage variation with load in a DC voltage power supply.

                              .
                              Its fine I am just replacing the transformer because it is 10VA and I need 30VA.

                              Comment

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