Flickering lights

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clairmo

New member
Location
Chaleston, SC
I am new and finding that there is SO much to learn. I would appreciate any help I can get with figuring this out. The customer claims that the washing machine has been on the same recepticle for eight years without any problems. The house has flickering lights on several circuits when the washing machine starts agitating. As soon as the machine is turned off the lights are fine. I plugged the machine into four different recepticles(different breakers) without any notable difference. I feel this is a problem within in the machine. Before I call in an appliance guy, I thought I'd see if there is something else I should do? Any ideas
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Loose service taps, loose lug in main panel, loose lug in meter base, rotted lateral, etc. I feel pretty confident in saying that the washer itself is just fine.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
clairmo said:
I am new and finding that there is SO much to learn. I would appreciate any help I can get with figuring this out. The customer claims that the washing machine has been on the same recepticle for eight years without any problems. The house has flickering lights on several circuits when the washing machine starts agitating. As soon as the machine is turned off the lights are fine. I plugged the machine into four different recepticles(different breakers) without any notable difference. I feel this is a problem within in the machine. Before I call in an appliance guy, I thought I'd see if there is something else I should do? Any ideas

I think you should have a Journeyman check for an open or compromised neutral. If that is not the problem, have him or her check for bad connections on the circuit back to the service.

Indeed, there is *so* much to learn. To me, that is what makes this trade the best!
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
mdshunk said:
Loose service taps, loose lug in main panel, loose lug in meter base, rotted lateral, etc. I feel pretty confident in saying that the washer itself is just fine.


Dittos , It sounds like a loose wire some where.
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
K8MHZ said:
Sorry to correct you, but I think you mean a compromised termination somewhere. Yeah, I know, I am being nit picky....


com-promised termination that's when your getting ready to fire some one.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
"Loose wire" is one of those technical catch-all terms, like every power loss is due to a "short."
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
LarryFine said:
"Loose wire" is one of those technical catch-all terms, like every power loss is due to a "short."
Right. When an older person asks me what I found with a certain problem, if they seem like they're confused with the beginnings of my explanation, I quickly sum it up as a "short". Not like it really matters to them anyhow. It's fixed now. Pay me.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
080603-0832 EST

clairmo:

I will assume the home has a 120-0-120 service. This means you have a single phase center tapped source with three current carrying conductors. About 1/2 of this home will be connected to one side of the center tap, and the other half to the other side.

Also I will assume that the washer is powered from 120 and not 240.

See if you can identify two different outlets such that one is on one side of center tap and the other is on the other side. I would like to have these on circuits that do not include the washer and any other varying on-off loads. It would be ideal if there were no loads on either of these circuits, but it is most important that if there is a load that it is constant. Roughly these two circuits will allow us to measure the source voltage of the two phases at the main breaker panel and relative to earth ground.

First, assume you do not have a meter. Connect an incandescent lamp to each of these outlets so you can simultaneously watch both lights. Now run the washing machine in its agitating cycle.
1. Do both lights dim together? If so I might assume a pole transformer primary problem. Highly unlikely. However, there might be a very small effect on one side due to the transformer primary impedance that is common to both secondaries. What I am really referring to here is that both have simultaneous and equal dimming.
2. Does one light dim and the other not change? A high resistance between the pole transformer hot wire on one phase and the breaker box bus bar for that phase. And this is the phase to which the washer is connected.
3. Does one light dim and the other get brighter? If so there is a high resistance in the neutral between the pole transformer and the breaker panel neutral bus bar.

You can do the same tests with a pair of meters, but the lights may actually be better.

You can use a meter to monitor the voltage of the neutral relative to the service grounding electrode. Also monitoring the voltage at the outlet the washing machine is plugged into during this agitating part of the cycle would be useful.

If we assume that the flickering lights are not on the washing machine circuit, that in the past they did not flicker, and that means there has been a change, then my guess is that a high resistance has developed between the pole transformer and the bus bars in the main panel. See below the idea of maybe they have a new washing machine.

I would also assume that when any significant motor starts that there is a momentary dip in light intensity that is greater than the flickering change.

A couple bits of information. I have a test resistor, 10.6 ohms hot, meaning an electric heater. Measurements at one of my living room outlets --- No load 125.3 V, and then with 11.5 A load 121.4 V. This change produces a noticable change in light intensity. Turning my oven on broil produces a 0.7 V change and the light change is not easily detected. Note: the oven is fed directly from the main panel and the voltage change is a result of the pole transformer internal impedance.

At my main panel the 10.6 ohm load on one phase produces a 1.1 V change on that phase, and 0.1 V change on the other phase. I have very low resistance wires from my pole transformer to the main panel and thus the major change in voltage due to the load is the transformer impedance.

You could see what kind of voltage changes you get from turning on and off your customer's oven. First, on each phase relative to neutral, and second with the meter from hot line to hot line.

I doubt that your customer's washing machine produces anything close to 11.5 A change while running. However, inrush current might be much greater. Then there are some new washing machines that might actually have some large changes in input current because of a electronic control of forward and reverse of a motor instead of some mechanical transmission. Did the washing machine change? You might monitor the washing machine input current during agitation.

Are you still working on this problem? If so, what new information could you provide relative my above comments?

.
 
Would it be possible that they have some new electronic device (flat screen tv, fancy computer, huge entertainment center, etc.) that is on when this is happening? I know, at home, if I have my computer on, while watching tv, while the tv in the living room is running and I'm washing and drying a load of laundry while using the microwave or the bath fan (different issue) the lights will dim. I suspect that it has to do with approaching the maximum available current, which is a finite amount.

It may be worth investigating a little bit (walking around their house looking for huge power drains like this) and turning them off. If you find a few, and they're all off and the lights stop dimming, you found the problem. If you find a few and the lights keep dimming, something, somewhere, is still not right.

I guess you could also check each circuit at the panel to see what is being used to determine this as well.:roll:
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
080603-2055 EST

DanZ:

The power source to your house under steady state input conditions can be represented by a constant voltage source (120 V) with an internal impedance. For a transformer in a 60 Hz application this series internal impedance can be represented by an ideal inductor in series with an ideal resistor.

When you apply an increasing load to this source there will be a decreasing voltage at the transformer terminals.

Suppose we put a lamp on this circuit. There will be a small drop in the terminal voltage, maybe 0.1 V. Now the terminal voltage is a constant 119.9 V so the lamp has a constant brightness.

Next we apply a 10 A load that switches on and off once every 2 seconds. 1 second on and 1 second off. The 10 A load produces a change of 1.9 V. Thus, the lamp goes from 119.9 to 118.0 to 119.9. This is enough change that you will see the light flicker at this 2 second period. Add another steady state load of 10 A (non-changing) and the voltage will fluctuate between 118.0 and 116.1 . The added load did not cause flicker, but did slightly lower the average brightness.

Your maximum load on a circuit will be determined by something burning up, or preferably by a circuit protector opening before harm is done.

.
 

SegDog

Member
Location
Philadelphia
seen it before

seen it before

When the machine gets old, it starts to breakdown, and lights on the circuit flicker...new machine, no flicker.

next...!!!
 
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