Using the neutral as a ground in older homes.

[Dejawi]

I am looking for where it would say in the code book where you could not use the neutral as a
ground. I know it is not good practice, have a builder wanting me to show him where it is against code. :?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would run from this builder however I would also show him art. 250.4(A)

 

[jumper]

Are we talking about dryers, ranges, or sub panels? Specific articles and years installed would apply.


I assume that this is existing?

 

[Dejawi]

I am talking about general use outlets. Using the neutral as a ground with the old grease/cloth wire.

 

[Dejawi]

The service is grounded and bonded and there is only a hot and neutral leaving the breaker box. At the outlet that was a two wire outlet he wants me to put in a three wire outlet.

 

[VOICECOILS]

The problem with that condition is that the neutral wire is considered a conductor, current will flow through it normally. A ground wire will never have any current running through it unless a fault occurs. You cant impose a fault on to a neautral wire that is used for a conductor. The only way around this issue is to use a AFCI breaker on the circuit or pull a ground wire to the receptical or light box.

Keep in mind this is true in california, im not sure what the rules are from state to state.

 

[VOICECOILS]

to add to my post, in calfornia you are not allowed to install three prong outlets in place of two prong outlets unless a GFCI, AGCI or ground wire is pulled to the location.

 

[Dejawi]

That is my understanding as well. But I am looking for something in the NEC to back my
argument.

 

[VOICECOILS]

Im not sure where to find that information in the NEC. In my case its a local code violation to install illegitimate three prong outlets. Check with your local building codes in arizona as each state varies.

 

[ActionDave]

Check out 404.6(D)(2).

 

[Lectricbota]

Check out 404.6(D)(2).

I think you mean 406.4(D)(2).

 

[growler]

I know it is not good practice, have a builder wanting me to show him where it is against code. :?

I am talking about general use outlets. Using the neutral as a ground with the old grease/cloth wire.

I'll do better than show him it's against code rules. Break the return path and have him hold one conductor in his right hand and one in his left hand and then turn the power on. If he is still alive once the experiment is over ask him if that feels like a ground.
:slaphead:
Who says you can't cure stupid?

 

[jwelectric]

I am looking for where it would say in the code book where you could not use the neutral as a
ground. I know it is not good practice, have a builder wanting me to show him where it is against code. :?

250.142 Use of Grounded Circuit Conductor for Grounding Equipment.

(A) Supply-Side Equipment. A grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted to ground non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures at any of the following locations:


(1) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the ac service-disconnecting means


(2) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means for separate buildings as provided in 250.32(B)


(3) On the supply side or within the enclosure of the main disconnecting means or overcurrent devices of a separately derived system where permitted by 250.30(A)(1)

On the supply side of a separately derived system disconnecting means, the grounded circuit conductor is permitted by 250.142(A) to ground non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures, which is similar to the grounding and bonding of the same types of equipment on the line side ofa service-supplied system.



(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1) and 250.32(B) Exception, a grounded circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnectingmeans or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.



Exception No. 1: The frames of ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and clothes dryers under the conditions permitted for existing installations by 250.140 shall be permitted to be connected to the grounded circuit conductor.



Exception No. 2: It shall be permissible to ground meter enclosures by connection to the grounded circuit conductor on the load side of the service disconnect where all of the following conditions apply:

(1)

No service ground-fault protection is installed.

(2)

All meter enclosures are located immediately adjacent to the service disconnecting means.

(3)

The size of the grounded circuit conductor is not smaller than the size specified in Table 250.122 for equipment grounding conductors.




Exception No. 3: Direct-current systems shall be permitted to be grounded on the load side of the disconnecting means or overcurrent device in accordance with 250.164.



Exception No. 4: Electrode-type boilers operating at over 600 volts shall be grounded as required in 490.72(E)(1) and 490.74.