EBG of an outdoor hottub install on exsisting concrete slab

[RowE]

how do you install an EBG on an outdoor hottub on an exsisting concrete slab? I am sure it is required by 680.26 and i have read lots of treads on the why and strongly agree but nothing on the how. the tub will be setting under an the attached patio and slab. the slab is appox. 15 x 30 roof is the same across the back of the house. thanks for your input and pradon my lack of experince on the subject.

 

[jap]

I'll be the first to let my guard down and let the arrows start flying my direction.

I wonder if a guy could get away with saw cutting a 1/4" wide slot 18 to 24 inches around the perimeter of the hot tub in the concrete with a way to get it back to the ground lug in the hot tub, install a bare #8 copper in the slot and then silicone the slot back
closed.

 

[augie47]

Tentative Interim Amendment
NFPA 70?
National Electrical Code?
2011 Edition
Reference: 680.42(B)
TIA 11-1
(SC 11-3-10/TIA Log #1005)
Pursuant to Section 5 of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects, the National Fire Protection Association has issued
the following Tentative Interim Amendment to NFPA 70?, National Electrical Code?, 2011 edition. The TIA was processed by Panel
17 and the National Electrical Code Technical Correlating Committee, and was issued by the Standards Council on March 1, 2011,
with an effective date of March 21, 2011.
A Tentative Interim Amendment is tentative because it has not been processed through the entire standards-making procedures. It is
interim because it is effective only between editions of the standard. A TIA automatically becomes a proposal of the proponent for the
next edition of the standard; as such, it then is subject to all of the procedures of the standards-making process.
1. Revise 680.42(B) to read as follows:
680.42(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer?s instructions on or above grade.
(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top
rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Informational Note: For further information regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and hot
tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 ? 2009, Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.
Issue Date: March 1, 2011
Effective Date: March 21, 2011
(Note: For further information on NFPA Codes and Standards, please see www.nfpa.org/codelist)
Copyright ? 2011 All Rights Reserved
NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION

 

[RowE]

thats guys for your posts.
This forum is a great asset.

 

[infinity]

Does the TIA that Gus posted only apply to the 2011 NEC? I thought that under the 2008 the rule was different.

 

[augie47]

Rob,
The TIA is only for the '11 NEC. I posted it as the OP showed he is under the '11 Code.
I find nothing in '08 that would change the 680.26 requirements.
Some jurisdictions will allow you to take advantage of such Code changes prior to that Code being adopted, but that is obviously an AHJ decision.

 

[jusme123]

...this means its only effective between the '11 NEC cycle, to the beginning of the '14 NEC cycle, am I understanding it correctly?

 

[kwired]

...this means its only effective between the '11 NEC cycle, to the beginning of the '14 NEC cycle, am I understanding it correctly?

Well AFAIK ... however long a particular AHJ is using the '11 NEC anyway. Once they adopt the '14 whatever is in the '14 applies unless a TIA is issued for a section in the '14 code. In general a TIA will be carried into the next code or some change will be made making the need for information in the previous editions TIA unnecessary in the new code.

There is a good chance the TIA we are talking about here will be worded similarly in the content of 2014 when it comes out.

 

[infinity]

The 2014 has incorporated the TIA into the code language. Here's a proposal from a representative of the pool and spa industry as well as the new code language. Due to the length it's broken down into two posts.

17-141 Log #225 NEC-P17
Final Action: Accept in Principle
(680.42(B))
________________________________________________________________
Note: This Proposal originates from Tentative Interim Amendment 70-11-1
(TIA 1005) issued by the Standards Council on March 1, 2011.
Submitter: Carvin DiGiovanni, National Spa & Pool Institute
Recommendation: 1. Revise 680.42(B) to read as follows:
680.42(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame
or base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden
staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.Exception No.
1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be
required to be bonded as required in 680.26. Exception No. 2: A listed self-
contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be
required to have equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as
required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above
grade.(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces
within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top rim of the spa is
greater than 28 inches (71 cm). Informational Note: For further information
regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and
hot tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009, Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment
Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.
Substantiation: At issue is that outdoor self-contained spas that are
manufactured “appliance” units tested and listed under UL 1563, designed and
intended to be installed on or above grade, are required to follow the same
NEC rules as custom in-ground spas and built-in swimming pools for perimeter
bonding. In reality, the two categories have very different concerns of safety
and enforcement. This difference was recognized by the Code for indoor spas
and for storable pools, both of which are excluded from perimeter bonding
requirements of 680.26 yet have the same safety issues as listed self-contained
spa or hot tub installed outdoors.
The application of 680.26 perimeter bonding requirements of the present NEC
creates undue expense and extreme difficulty for homeowners who wish to
simply set up a portable spa in their backyard, yet the requirements add no
70-712
Report on Proposals A2013 — Copyright, NFPA NFPA 70
documented safety benefit. The result is increased numbers of un-permitted
self-installations, significantly increasing safety risks and nullifying the very
intent of the Code.
This TIA urgently seeks to minimize the number of at-risk non-permitted
installations by excluding very specific installations of listed portable self-
contained spas from perimeter bonding and giving clear guidance to AHJ’s. Its
intent is also to incorporate concerns voiced by various Panel members during
the discussion of this Proposal and Comment 17-100.
Emergency Nature: Left unchanged, the present 2008 and unchanged 2011
Code provisions in 680.42(B) for listed self-contained portable spas or hot tubs
installed outdoors forces spa purchasers to:
? Incur exorbitant cost to tear out and re-build entire permanent patio areas for
a portable spa or hot tub, without any scientifically defensible basis for such a
requirement.
? Be required to install useless and ineffective perimeter bonding on or under
nonconductive decks, some of which may be one or more stories above ground
level where there is no risk of stray voltage in the immediate vicinity of the spa
or hot tub.
? Self-install a listed self-contained portable spa or hot tub without a permit,
bypassing all code enforcement inspections and nullification of the intent of the
Code.
Conformance to NFPA Emergency Nature Rules
Following are specific issues that clearly mark the issues as having an
“Emergency Nature”:
a) (Rule A is not applicable).
b) The document contains a conflict within the document or with another NFPA
document.
Specifically, 680.40 lumps all spas or hot tubs together even though listed
self-contained portable spas or hot tubs installed outdoors (portable outdoor
spas) have the same safety issues as 680.30 Storable Pools and 680.43 Indoor
Self-Contained Spas, yet must conform to 680.26 for in-ground custom pools
and spas.. This presents conflicts in the various code sections and results in
inappropriate and unsupportable classifications.
c) (Rule C is not applicable)
d) (Rule D is not applicable)
e) (Rule E is not applicable)
f) The proposed TIA intends to correct a circumstance in which the revised
document has resulted in an adverse impact on a product or method that was
inadvertently overlooked in the total revision process, or was without adequate
technical (safety) justification for the action.
Specifically, 680.42 makes no differentiation between permanently installed
in-ground custom spas or hot tubs, and listed self-contained (portable) spas or
hot tubs, yet the safety concerns are vastly different. In addition, the 680.26(B)
(2) perimeter bonding stipulation became far more strict in recent Code
editions with the intent of ensuring safety for permanently installed in-ground
pools and spas but without regard to listed self-contained (portable) spas or hot
tubs.
The incorporation of the perimeter bonding requirements contained in
680.26(B)(2) into 680.42 as it pertains to listed self-contained spas or hot tubs
results in no safety benefit in a portable self-contained listed spa or hot tub
installation, yet it forces extraordinary expense in the installation or on-premise
relocation of listed self-contained spas or hot tubs.
There is no technical (safety) justification for perimeter bonding of listed self-
contained spas or hot tubs, and no history of injury or death in connection with
a properly installed self-contained spa without perimeter bonding. In the 2010
ROC process, CMP-17 members reviewed the known documented cases of
injury or death available from CPSC, UL field reports and elsewhere, and none
involved perimeter bonding of listed self-contained spas or hot tubs, as
evidenced by the discussion associated with Comment 17-100.
TIA Seeks Correction of Prior Panel Action That Was Based on Incorrect
Data
As a result of the language in the existing Code, there have been a number of
reported anecdotal instances where inspectors are requiring excessive and
nonsensical installations of portable self-contained listed spas and hot tubs, and
an unknown number of instances where inspections have been bypassed.
Comment 17-100 presented to CMP-17 attempted to correct these deficiencies.
Evidence presented to CMP-17 in the evaluation of Comment 17-100
demonstrated that there was no documented death or injury attributable to
either deficient or even nonexistent bonding of perimeter surfaces associated
with listed self-contained spas or hot tubs installed outdoors.
The inclusion of portable self-contained spas in 680.26 for perimeter bonding
was based on incorrect, unsupported evidence. The original “substantiations”
for 2004 Proposal 17-122 stated:
“Numerous instances have been encountered where voltage
gradients have been found to exist between a properly grounded and bonded
swimming pool, packaged or self-contained spa or hot tub and the interlocking
paving stone deck surface installed surrounding it. Investigations of such
conditions typically reveal
that the paving stone surface does not possess
suitable means by which bonding can be established and thus the necessity of
creating an equipotential ground surface has been neglected.”
Also, the “substantiations” for 2004 Proposal 17-136 stated:
“Numerous instances have been encountered where voltage
gradients have been found to exist between a properly grounded and bonded
packaged or self-contained spa or hot tub and the concrete or paver stone
surface upon which it is installed. Investigations of such conditions typically
reveal that the concrete or paver stone surface has not been bonded to the spa
or hot tub equipment. Consideration of a spa or hot tub as a variation of a
permanently installed swimming pool would suggest that the same grounding
and bonding practices apply. However, the requirements to properly bond the
reinforcing metal of a deck surface when installing a spa or hot tub is not
explicit enough in the code.”
These “substantiations” do not in fact demonstrate that “numerous
instances... have been found to exist,” or that “a
[listed self-contained] spa or
hot tub as a variation of a permanently installed swimming pool would suggest
that the same grounding and bonding practices apply,” or that there is any
perceptible safety risk associated with listed self-contained spas or hot tubs
installed outdoors installed without perimeter bonding. Instead, the documented
evidence reveals the complete opposite. As stated above, in the 2010 ROC
process, CMP-17 members reviewed the known documented cases of injury or
death available from CPSC, UL field reports and elsewhere, and none involved
perimeter bonding of listed self-contained spas or hot tubs, as evidenced by the
discussion associated with Comment 17-100.
Consequently, this TIA is intended to correct a 2004 Panel decision that was
based on incorrect supporting data.

 

[infinity]

Extraordinary and Unnecessary Requirements Nullify Purpose of Code
The current language of 680.42 can be and has been legitimately interpreted by
AHJs to require such extraordinary and unnecessary measures as:
? Requiring tearing up and re-building of entire existing permanent concrete
patios if listed self-contained portable spas or hot tubs are placed on them.
? Requiring the installation of No. 8 AWG bare perimeter bonding conductors
stapled to the bottom of non-conducting decks made of wood or other similar
materials that may even be one or more stories above ground level.
? Requiring that buried perimeter bonding rings be placed in the earth below
such non-conducting decks, even if the deck is elevated well above ground
level and/or prohibits contact with the listed self-contained spa or hot tub by
persons standing on the ground. The existence of these legitimate but extraordinary interpretations of 680.42
often results in the installation or on-premise relocation of listed self-contained
spas or hot tubs without permits, nullifying the Code entirely and
circumventing the inspection of very legitimate safety items associated with the
electrical installation such as GFCI protection, proper cord sizing and physical
protection, the existence of a disconnecting means, etc. An example of the
catastrophic results of bypassing code compliance is illustrated in the
supporting documentation in the Letter to CMP-17 Regarding Spa Safety
Issues and Perimeter Bonding.
Supporting Documentation Attachments:
? Detailed Discussion of Spa Perimeter Bonding
? Illustrations of Differences for Self-Contained Spa and In-Ground Pool
? Photo of Typical Self-Contained Spa or Hot Tub
? Example of User?s Guide for Electrical Connections of Spa
? UL 1563 Content Summary
? Letter to CMP-17 Regarding Spa Safety Issues and Perimeter Bonding
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Panel Statement: Refer to the panel action on Proposal 17-142 which meets
the intent of the submitter.
Number Eligible to Vote: 10
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10
Comment on Affirmative:
COOK, D.: See Cook comment on Proposal 17-142.

17-142 Log #344 NEC-P17
Final Action: Accept
(680.42(B))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Brian E. Rock, Hubbell Incorporated
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I
and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would
otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
[680.42(A) unchanged by this Proposal]
(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or
base shall be permitted. The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden
staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces in accordance with 680.26(B)(2)
shall not be required to be provided for spas and hot tubs where all of the
following conditions apply:
(1) The spa or hot tub shall be listed as a self-contained spa for aboveground
use.
(2) The spa or hot tub shall not be identified as suitable only for indoor use.
(3) The installation shall be in accordance with the manufacturer?s instructions
and shall be located on or above grade.
(4) The top rim of the spa or hot tub shall be at least 71 cm (28 in.) above all
perimeter surfaces that are within 76 cm (30 in.) measured horizontally from
the spa or hot tub. The height of nonconductive external steps for entry to or
exit from the self-contained spa shall not be used to reduce or increase this rim
70-713
Report on Proposals A2013 ? Copyright, NFPA NFPA 70
height measurement.
Informational Note: For information regarding listing requirements for self-
contained spas and hot tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 - 2010, Standard for Electric
Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.
[Remainder of 680.42 unchanged by this Proposal]
Substantiation: Substantiated by Tentative Interim Amendment (TIA) No.
1005 for 2011 National Electrical Code? but the requirement wording
proposed here provides an unambiguous statement of Code direction, and
complies with the NEC? Manual of Style, not fully achieved in revised
requirement wording originally proposed by TIA No. 1005.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Panel Statement: The panel makes reference to (B)(2) in the recommendation
and advises that the language is intentionally worded to correlate with the
listing requirements for marking contained in the product safety standard.
Number Eligible to Vote: 10
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10
Comment on Affirmative:
COOK, D.: Proposal 17-144 provides the most concise description of the
requirement, appears to address NEC Style Manual issues and meets the intent
of the submitter.

Quite a bit of reading. :roll:

 

[kwired]

Quite a bit of reading. :roll:

I think I am ok with it as long as they keep it short and simple in the actual code

 

[jap]

(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces
within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top rim of the spa is
greater than 28 inches.

What does this mean? and why does it matter?
Is it so something like a radio cant be placed on the ledge of an existing permanent perimeter surface
and fall off into the water?

 

[kwired]

(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces
within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top rim of the spa is
greater than 28 inches.

What does this mean? and why does it matter?
Is it so something like a radio cant be placed on the ledge of an existing permanent perimeter surface
and fall off into the water?

This is extracted from the content in post 10 and I think explains what that means:

(4) The top rim of the spa or hot tub shall be at least 71 cm (28 in.) above all
perimeter surfaces that are within 76 cm (30 in.) measured horizontally from
the spa or hot tub. The height of nonconductive external steps for entry to or
exit from the self-contained spa shall not be used to reduce or increase this rim.

I think it has to do with limiting the ability to reach grounded surfaces while using the spa. If you have a listed packaged unit that is free standing on a slab, you usually have no problems complying. If you have a unit that is below grade, or has a deck around the rim, then you need to watch this more.

 

[jap]

So either the tub has to be 28" higher than perimeter surfaces within 30 inches or the perimeter surfaces
within 30 inches of the tub must be higher than 28 inches ?