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Articles 225 and 230- Detached Gargae

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    #16
    And, needless to say (but saying it anyway) the two sets of neutrals will remain isolated from each other throughout the structure.

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      #17
      Originally posted by fmtjfw View Post
      ...

      Now the service at the garage/apartment needs to meet all the requirements for grounding and the feeder/branch circuit from the other building needs to meet all its grounding requirements.
      ...
      I would mount the apartment service disconnect and the garage feeder/branch circuit disconnect adjacent to each other and interconnect the four grounding wires (from rod(s), from feeder, to service and feeder disconnects). I would interconnect the grounding and neutral only in the service disconnect.
      Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
      And, needless to say (but saying it anyway) the two sets of neutrals will remain isolated from each other throughout the structure.
      As mentioned previously, there is no way that I can think of to comply with all the grounding requirements and prevent grounding from being a parallel path for neutral current. While some say neutral current through grounding is not objectionable current on the utility side of service disconnecting means, for the case proposed in the OP, it will be on the load side of the house's service disconnect.
      I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

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        #18
        I wonder if you ignore some of art 250 and install 4 ground rods and not connect them together- 2 for the feeder and 2 for the service. Would that not keep from getting a parallel path
        They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
        She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
        I can't help it if I'm lucky

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          #19
          I guess I do not read it this way at all

          Article 230 general requirements deal with a building being supplied by a service and only one supply is allowed with exceptions

          Article 225 part II states in general one supply with exceptions

          Both articles limit the building to one supply not withstanding the exceptions.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
            I wonder if you ignore some of art 250 and install 4 ground rods and not connect them together- 2 for the feeder and 2 for the service. Would that not keep from getting a parallel path
            No. Under current code, we are required to run an EGC with the feeder from the house, which gets bonded to the garage GES along with the apartment service. The feeder EGC is effectively bonded to the neutral of both services. Even under older Code where the EGC was not required for a feeder to a separate structure, the neutral (grounded conductor) was still required to be bonded to the structure's GES, so the feeder neutral would end up being the parallel conductor.
            I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

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              #21
              Originally posted by david View Post
              I guess I do not read it this way at all

              Article 230 general requirements deal with a building being supplied by a service and only one supply is allowed with exceptions

              Article 225 part II states in general one supply with exceptions

              Both articles limit the building to one supply not withstanding the exceptions.
              But the articles limit the one supply to the type being considered. That is, aside from exceptions, 230 limits the structure to one service, while 225 limits the structure to one feeder or branch circuit. Neither correlate with the other to specifically state only one supply no matter the type.
              I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

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                #22
                Again I do not read it that way.

                225.30 is titled number of supplies not number of feeders or branch circuits

                it further states from the load side of the service disconnecting means their can only be one feeder or branch circuit supplying a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder or branch circuit

                That would be a additional building s from a single service disconnecting means
                Last edited by david; 06-25-14, 04:03 PM.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by david View Post
                  Again I do not read it that way.

                  225.30 is titled number of supplies not number of feeders or branch circuits

                  it further states from the load side of the service disconnecting means their can only be one feeder or branch circuit supplying a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder or branch circuit

                  That would be a additional building s from a single service disconnecting means
                  Not saying you can't or shouldn't read it that way. I'm only playing the role of devil's advocate for our discussion...

                  Yes, 225.30 is titled Number of Supplies, but you also have to take into account the context of the Article title "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders", scope as described in 225.1, plus the Part II title "Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)".

                  Additionally, the general consensus regarding Code implementation is permissive. That is, unless specifically prohibited the objective is permitted. Neither Article 225 or Article 230 specifically prohibit a building or structure from being supplied by both a service and a feeder or branch circuit.

                  Also, you're also assuming the fact both originate from the same source has bearing on the matter. Consider 225.30(D), which states "Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases or for different uses, such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations." It only uses the underlined as an example. Does this specifically exclude a desire to power a load or loads through a different meter? No.
                  I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by david View Post
                    Again I do not read it that way.

                    225.30 is titled number of supplies not number of feeders or branch circuits

                    it further states from the load side of the service disconnecting means their can only be one feeder or branch circuit supplying a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder or branch circuit

                    That would be a additional building s from a single service disconnecting means

                    Article 225 is about feeders or outside branch circuits so the number of supplies is about feeders not services or supplies in general
                    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                    I can't help it if I'm lucky

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                      Article 225 is about feeders or outside branch circuits so the number of supplies is about feeders not services or supplies in general
                      NO it is about feeders and services:

                      225.37 Identification. Where a building or structure has any combination of feeders, branch circuits, or services passing through it or supplying it, a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each feeder and branch-circuit disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, or branch circuits supplying that building or structure or passing through that building or structure and the area served by each.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by fmtjfw View Post
                        NO it is about feeders and services:

                        225.37 Identification. Where a building or structure has any combination of feeders, branch circuits, or services passing through it or supplying it, a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each feeder and branch-circuit disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, or branch circuits supplying that building or structure or passing through that building or structure and the area served by each.
                        NO it is regarding outside feeders and branch circuits only.

                        Says so right in Artcle 225 title, and there's the scope [225.1]. Just because text within refers to "services" does not make it a requirement for services.
                        I will have achieved my life's goal if I die with a smile on my face.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                          I wonder if you ignore some of art 250 and install 4 ground rods and not connect them together- 2 for the feeder and 2 for the service. Would that not keep from getting a parallel path
                          Parallel neutrals and grounding conductors are not necessarily bad.
                          Separate grounding means without interconnection is considered bad.

                          You don't want different voltages on the conductive surfaces of different objects in the same building.

                          Case in point: I worked for a computer company that had a building served by two different power companies (don't ask). There were rooms which had receptacles from both power companies. When you hooked up components of a single computer system using signal cables (using chassis ground as part of the signaling circuit), the cables would sometimes catch fire. The signal cables were unable to pass the current required to equalize the "ground" for both POCOs.

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                            #28
                            OK. So if there is a service and a feeder you only have to label the feeder?
                            That is not what it explicitly says.
                            Do you argue that all code requirements that do not fall narrowly under the words in the section title are null and void?
                            Last edited by GoldDigger; 06-25-14, 07:12 PM.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by GoldDigger View Post
                              OK. So if there is a service and a feeder you only have to label the feeder?
                              That is not what it explicitly says.
                              Do you argue that all code requirements that do not fall narrowly under the words in the section title are null and void?
                              I argue that a code article only applies to what it says it applies to.


                              225.1 Scope. This article covers requirements for outside
                              branch circuits and feeders run on or between buildings,
                              structures, or poles on the premises; and electrical equipment
                              and wiring for the supply of utilization equipment that
                              is located on or attached to the outside of buildings, structures,
                              or poles.
                              It does not mention services and services are a well defined thing.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Smart $ View Post
                                NO it is regarding outside feeders and branch circuits only.

                                Says so right in Artcle 225 title, and there's the scope [225.1]. Just because text within refers to "services" does not make it a requirement for services.
                                Titles and scopes are generic. The nitty-gritty is in the body of the text. Both 225 and 230 reference situations with more than one service and/or separate branch circuit(s) and/or separate feeder(s).

                                225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

                                Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or
                                branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original building or structure, unless permitted in
                                225.30(A) through (E).

                                (B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for either of the following:

                                (1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants

                                AND

                                230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).

                                (B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional services shall be permitted for either of the following:

                                (1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no available space for service equipment accessible to all occupants
                                Last edited by fmtjfw; 06-25-14, 07:26 PM.

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