Articles 225 and 230- Detached Gargae

[Dennis Alwon]

In the example Dennis presented with the garage apartment, what size would the service have to be what size would the feeder have to be?

IMO since the apartment is a living quarters then it would have to be 100 amps based on 230.79 and 230.42(B). The feeder or branch circuit can be whatever the load needs to be served

 

[Smart $]

If I accept this concept that a building any building can be supplied with a service and a feeder without any consideration other than it is a design choice leads me to a question.
First using my real example of the tanning solon with an alteration to the load capacity of the service, and a choice to add a feeder to meet the load capacity.

Second the same example of the tanning solon and using my design choice of supplying the building with one feeder and one service when it is new construction

What size does the feeder have to be in both examples?

What size does the service conductors have to be in both examples?

In the example of the alteration the original service load is 400 amps the additional load is 200 amps
In the new construction the load is 600 amps

In all cases, sized for the respective load as calculated in Article 220. Your query almost makes me believe you think that the feeder and service are connected together. In case that is what you think we are saying, we are not. Loads are kept separate. You'd have feeder loads and you'd have service loads.

 

[kwired]

It is different in each area buy it is common for their to be laws prohibiting the resale of electricity to tenants or if you can do it you have to do it at cost, you can't make a profit on selling it.

But best to check the rules for your area.

Or you at least need to have same approval to sell electricity as a POCO has and follow all the same laws, submit proper taxes and other charges to the proper authority on your sales of energy as well.

You may very well be able to be reimbursed for tenant energy charges and do it legally, but need to be careful how you do it. An itemized invoice that states number of kilowatt hours consumed starts making you look more like a POCO and less like a landlord.

 

[iwire]

Or you at least need to have same approval to sell electricity as a POCO has and follow all the same laws, submit proper taxes and other charges to the proper authority on your sales of energy as well.

You may very well be able to be reimbursed for tenant energy charges and do it legally, but need to be careful how you do it. An itemized invoice that states number of kilowatt hours consumed starts making you look more like a POCO and less like a landlord.

So if I am following you it would be best to know the rules for your area?

 

[kwired]

So if I am following you it would be best to know the rules for your area?

Well yes, primarily your state laws that apply to energy sales is where you need to start.

Just had a conversation yesterday with a guy that was at the supply house. He has a big grill, smoker, etc and loves to make good meat, and does it kind of for his own recreation on the side. Someone that is in it for the business turned him in after he did a wedding - he needs a catering license just to do his "hobby"

It was mentioned that you can't do anything anymore without a license or permit - maybe even need a license to use the restroom (that is the clean version of the comment).

 

[david]

In all cases, sized for the respective load as calculated in Article 220. Your query almost makes me believe you think that the feeder and service are connected together. In case that is what you think we are saying, we are not. Loads are kept separate. You'd have feeder loads and you'd have service loads.

know I do not think that the loads are connected together I see clearly that the KV is being distributed through two separate supplies.
What I am exploring is this.

If the same building is supplied by a feeder only you calculate the load based on 220 you come up with a min. conductor size.

If you supply the building with a service you calculate the size of the service conductors. based on 220

if by design choice you supply this building using this feeder and service concept, looking at new construction first.
Are you saying that the service calculations only have to include the article 220 loads supplied through the service and you can exclude the article 220 loads supplied by the feeder in the service calculations. If so where do I go to in article 230 to find that provision?

And also if by design choice I supply the building with a service and a feeder and calculate the feeder size, can I exclude the load supplied by the service from the feeder calculations and if so where in article 215 do I go to find this provision

 

[david]

what you are advocating can be understood to mean this.
If Someone has a 100 Amp service to a single family dwelling and the load is increased to 200 amps instead up sizing the service they can choice to install a pedestal or pole out side there dwelling supply that structure ( pedestal or pole)with a 100 amp service and supply the house with a 100 amp feeder to a panel anywhere in that dwelling.

and I am trying to be clear if that is what you are advocating

 

[iwire]

If Someone has a 100 Amp service to a single family dwelling and the load is increased to 200 amps instead up sizing the service they can choice to install a pedestal or pole out side there dwelling supply that structure ( pedestal or pole)with a 100 amp service and supply the house with a 100 amp feeder to a panel anywhere in that dwelling.

Yes, I guess you could do that assuming the power company would play ball.

 

[david]

Yes, I guess you could do that assuming the power company would play ball.

ok so where do I go and find the provision that the service does not have to be sized for the total calculated load of the dwelling?

 

[iwire]

ok so where do I go and find the provision that the service does not have to be sized for the total calculated load of the dwelling?

Where can I find a requirement that says a single service or feeder must carry the entire building load?

Consider that one of the reasons that multiple services are allowed is capacity.

 

[david]

Yes, I guess you could do that assuming the power company would play ball.

ok so where do I go and find the provision that the service does not have to be sized for the total calculated load of the dwelling?

Where can I find a requirement that says a single service or feeder must carry the entire building load?

Consider that one of the reasons that multiple services are allowed is capacity.

now we are into the exceptions and not the general rule ( based on design choice alone)

in the single family dwelling example where do I go to find a provision that the service does not have to be sized for the total calculated load of the dwelling

 

[iwire]

in the single family dwelling example where do I go to find a provision that the service does not have to be sized for the total calculated load of the dwelling

I really hate answering your question with a question but I need to know where the NEC requires loads not connected to a service to be included in the service calculations.

 

[iwire]

David,

We have wired three good sized buildings with fuel cells. The buildings are permanently served with a service and a feeder both connected together supplying the building 24/7.

Do you see this as allowed or a violation?

 

[david]

692.3 Other Articles.
Wherever the requirements of other articles of this Code and Article 692 differ, the requirements of Article 692 shall apply, and, if the system is operated in parallel with a primary source(s) of electricity, the requirements in 705.14, 705.16, 705.32, and 705.143 shall apply.

sorry but to try and stay on point I my question is not based on exceptions or special provisions else where found in the code

 

[iwire]

sorry but to try and stay on point I my question is not based on exceptions or special provisions else where found in the code

Fair enough, let's stay on point.

You are the inspector, you come out to my job and find a single family home supplied by both a feeder and a service.

What code section would you cite to fail my installation?

 

[david]

I really hate answering your question with a question but I need to know where the NEC requires loads not connected to a service to be included in the service calculations.

it may be my misunderstanding but I thought all 220 loads in a building had to be calculated in the service loads even if it is one or more services.

 

[kwired]

what you are advocating can be understood to mean this.
If Someone has a 100 Amp service to a single family dwelling and the load is increased to 200 amps instead up sizing the service they can choice to install a pedestal or pole out side there dwelling supply that structure ( pedestal or pole)with a 100 amp service and supply the house with a 100 amp feeder to a panel anywhere in that dwelling.

and I am trying to be clear if that is what you are advocating

One to six service disconnecting means (plus other exceptions like a fire pump) supplied from the same source is one service. If supplied from separate sources, especially if different characteristics like different voltage or number of phases, that is a case where multiple services is permitted. One service can be fed with one service drop or service lateral. Multiple sets of service conductors connected at supply end but not at the load end are considered one service lateral.

 

[david]

be back

 

[david]

what you are advocating can be understood to mean this.
If Someone has a 100 Amp service to a single family dwelling and the load is increased to 200 amps instead up sizing the service they can choice to install a pedestal or pole out side there dwelling supply that structure ( pedestal or pole)with a 100 amp service and supply the house with a 100 amp feeder to a panel anywhere in that dwelling.

and I am trying to be clear if that is what you are advocating

One to six service disconnecting means (plus other exceptions like a fire pump) supplied from the same source is one service. If supplied from separate sources, especially if different characteristics like different voltage or number of phases, that is a case where multiple services is permitted. One service can be fed with one service drop or service lateral. Multiple sets of service conductors connected at supply end but not at the load end are considered one service lateral.

Multiple sets of service conductors connected at supply end but not at the load end are considered one service lateral.

"For the purpose of 230.40, Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected together at their supply end but not connected together at their load end shall be considered to be supplying one service."

I can only agree with that if the service is a lateral 1/0 AWG and larger and the service disconnects are grouped.

Are you saying your view is that this set up constitutes a single utility connection (Service)?

 

[david]

what you are advocating can be understood to mean this.
If Someone has a 100 Amp service to a single family dwelling and the load is increased to 200 amps instead up sizing the service they can choice to install a pedestal or pole out side there dwelling supply that structure ( pedestal or pole)with a 100 amp service and supply the house with a 100 amp feeder to a panel anywhere in that dwelling.

and I am trying to be clear if that is what you are advocating

Fair enough, let's stay on point.

You are the inspector, you come out to my job and find a single family home supplied by both a feeder and a service.

What code section would you cite to fail my installation?

if you are referring to this example that I presented and you said was compliant, I would continue this same line of reasoning first of all the service has to be sized to article 220 calculations in this example 200 amps