Articles 225 and 230- Detached Gargae

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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I guess I do not read it this way at all

Article 230 general requirements deal with a building being supplied by a service and only one supply is allowed with exceptions

Article 225 part II states in general one supply with exceptions

Both articles limit the building to one supply not withstanding the exceptions.
But the articles limit the one supply to the type being considered. That is, aside from exceptions, 230 limits the structure to one service, while 225 limits the structure to one feeder or branch circuit. Neither correlate with the other to specifically state only one supply no matter the type.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
Again I do not read it that way.

225.30 is titled number of supplies not number of feeders or branch circuits

it further states from the load side of the service disconnecting means their can only be one feeder or branch circuit supplying a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder or branch circuit

That would be a additional building s from a single service disconnecting means
 
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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Again I do not read it that way.

225.30 is titled number of supplies not number of feeders or branch circuits

it further states from the load side of the service disconnecting means their can only be one feeder or branch circuit supplying a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder or branch circuit

That would be a additional building s from a single service disconnecting means
Not saying you can't or shouldn't read it that way. I'm only playing the role of devil's advocate for our discussion...

Yes, 225.30 is titled Number of Supplies, but you also have to take into account the context of the Article title "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders", scope as described in 225.1, plus the Part II title "Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)".

Additionally, the general consensus regarding Code implementation is permissive. That is, unless specifically prohibited the objective is permitted. Neither Article 225 or Article 230 specifically prohibit a building or structure from being supplied by both a service and a feeder or branch circuit.

Also, you're also assuming the fact both originate from the same source has bearing on the matter. Consider 225.30(D), which states "Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases or for different uses, such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations." It only uses the underlined as an example. Does this specifically exclude a desire to power a load or loads through a different meter? No.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Again I do not read it that way.

225.30 is titled number of supplies not number of feeders or branch circuits

it further states from the load side of the service disconnecting means their can only be one feeder or branch circuit supplying a building or structure that is supplied by a feeder or branch circuit

That would be a additional building s from a single service disconnecting means


Article 225 is about feeders or outside branch circuits so the number of supplies is about feeders not services or supplies in general
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
Article 225 is about feeders or outside branch circuits so the number of supplies is about feeders not services or supplies in general

NO it is about feeders and services:

225.37 Identification. Where a building or structure has any combination of feeders, branch circuits, or services passing through it or supplying it, a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each feeder and branch-circuit disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, or branch circuits supplying that building or structure or passing through that building or structure and the area served by each.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
NO it is about feeders and services:

225.37 Identification. Where a building or structure has any combination of feeders, branch circuits, or services passing through it or supplying it, a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each feeder and branch-circuit disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, or branch circuits supplying that building or structure or passing through that building or structure and the area served by each.
NO it is regarding outside feeders and branch circuits only.

Says so right in Artcle 225 title, and there's the scope [225.1]. Just because text within refers to "services" does not make it a requirement for services.
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
I wonder if you ignore some of art 250 and install 4 ground rods and not connect them together- 2 for the feeder and 2 for the service. Would that not keep from getting a parallel path

Parallel neutrals and grounding conductors are not necessarily bad.
Separate grounding means without interconnection is considered bad.

You don't want different voltages on the conductive surfaces of different objects in the same building.

Case in point: I worked for a computer company that had a building served by two different power companies (don't ask). There were rooms which had receptacles from both power companies. When you hooked up components of a single computer system using signal cables (using chassis ground as part of the signaling circuit), the cables would sometimes catch fire. The signal cables were unable to pass the current required to equalize the "ground" for both POCOs.
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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OK. So if there is a service and a feeder you only have to label the feeder?
That is not what it explicitly says.
Do you argue that all code requirements that do not fall narrowly under the words in the section title are null and void?
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
OK. So if there is a service and a feeder you only have to label the feeder?
That is not what it explicitly says.
Do you argue that all code requirements that do not fall narrowly under the words in the section title are null and void?

I argue that a code article only applies to what it says it applies to.


225.1 Scope. This article covers requirements for outside
branch circuits and feeders run on or between buildings,
structures, or poles on the premises; and electrical equipment
and wiring for the supply of utilization equipment that
is located on or attached to the outside of buildings, structures,
or poles.

It does not mention services and services are a well defined thing.
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
NO it is regarding outside feeders and branch circuits only.

Says so right in Artcle 225 title, and there's the scope [225.1]. Just because text within refers to "services" does not make it a requirement for services.

Titles and scopes are generic. The nitty-gritty is in the body of the text. Both 225 and 230 reference situations with more than one service and/or separate branch circuit(s) and/or separate feeder(s).

225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or
branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original building or structure, unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E).

(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for either of the following:

(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants

AND

230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).

(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional services shall be permitted for either of the following:

(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no available space for service equipment accessible to all occupants
 
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fmtjfw

Senior Member
No, absolutely not.

The scopes and titles are just as much code as any other sections in the article.

We do not get to ignore the scope when it suits us.

So where would you put requirements for wiring in a building that is fed from both services and feeders? Article 227 Things that Fall between 225 and 230

And how can 225 discuss disconnects and OCPDs that are found inside buildings? see 225.32 Location for example. That is clearly out of scope by your definition.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
But the articles limit the one supply to the type being considered. That is, aside from exceptions, 230 limits the structure to one service, while 225 limits the structure to one feeder or branch circuit. Neither correlate with the other to specifically state only one supply no matter the type.

But the articles limit the one supply to the type being considered/QUOTE]

Is that not an assumption, putting the exceptions aside doesn't it specifically state what the supply shall only be. making the statement that it is only limiting one of the type (feeder). Should it not be read as only one feed or branch circuit. other types allowed get addressed when we get into the exceptions. How do we get from shall only be to shall only be of this type.

225 addresses feeders and branch circuit supplies not services because there are no service supplies to these buildings.

230 addresses service supplies because the buildings are supplied by services and not feeders.

should we get into discussing manufactured homes can the be supplied by both a service or a feeder or does it need to be only one or the other.

These articles are addressing either a service supply or a feeder supply one or the other but not both

I am only addressing the gen rule. not the exceptions I know a building can have more than one supply when we move away from the general rule into the exceptions
 
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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Titles and scopes are generic. The nitty-gritty is in the body of the text. Both 225 and 230 reference situations with more than one service and/or separate branch circuit(s) and/or separate feeder(s).

225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional buildings or other structures, only one feeder or
branch circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original building or structure, unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E).

(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for either of the following:

(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants

AND

230.2 Number of Services. A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).

(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional services shall be permitted for either of the following:

(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no available space for service equipment accessible to all occupants

So where would you put requirements for wiring in a building that is fed from both services and feeders? Article 227 Things that Fall between 225 and 230

And how can 225 discuss disconnects and OCPDs that are found inside buildings? see 225.32 Location for example. That is clearly out of scope by your definition.
I fail to see where you are even coming from in these posts. Earlier you brought up 225.37 regarding "any combination of feeders, branch circuits, or services passing through it or supplying it". There mere mention of any combination of the listed items have a logical conclusion that feeders and services are permitted to supply a single structure whether Article 225 applies only to outside feeders and branch circuits or not.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
OK. So if there is a service and a feeder you only have to label the feeder?
That is not what it explicitly says.
Do you argue that all code requirements that do not fall narrowly under the words in the section title are null and void?
Actually the feeder is the only disconnect requiring a plaque or directory... but note it must provide location where all other supplies to that structure originate, including the [other] service location.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
I like Smart $'s idea to put the meters and disconnects in one location in a situation like this (although it's a moot point anyway at this time).

I'm also interested in the 225.37 requirement for labeling. The only time I've run into a situation that I think might qualify under this section was when wiring a lighting showroom located in something of a strip mall. We found JBs that were not originating from any of our panels which turned out to be powering outside lighting. Does the presence of these circuits trigger labeling requirements in the individual units?
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
I like Smart $'s idea to put the meters and disconnects in one location in a situation like this (although it's a moot point anyway at this time).

I'm also interested in the 225.37 requirement for labeling. The only time I've run into a situation that I think might qualify under this section was when wiring a lighting showroom located in something of a strip mall. We found JBs that were not originating from any of our panels which turned out to be powering outside lighting. Does the presence of these circuits trigger labeling requirements in the individual units?

I try and explain it this way, when you go to the service location for that unit open the service disconnects (1-6) for each type present and you still have circuits live originating from another service disconnect location then something is wrong.

I see you are from PA. if your strip mall is set up like a lot that I see, this is a common violation with the service disconnect in the stock room for that unit, the service for the site lighting at its own location with the branch circuit for that lighting passing through the unit
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
I like Smart $'s idea to put the meters and disconnects in one location in a situation like this (although it's a moot point anyway at this time).

I'm also interested in the 225.37 requirement for labeling. The only time I've run into a situation that I think might qualify under this section was when wiring a lighting showroom located in something of a strip mall. We found JBs that were not originating from any of our panels which turned out to be powering outside lighting. Does the presence of these circuits trigger labeling requirements in the individual units?

imagine the unit with MC cable and you are sent their for a total tear down and rebuilt for the unit, Even though you opened the service disconnect(s) even if someone doesn't get hurt they are going to need a new pair of linesman's
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
imagine the unit with MC cable and you are sent their for a total tear down and rebuilt for the unit, Even though you opened the service disconnect(s) even if someone doesn't get hurt they are going to need a new pair of linesman's

Why? If the disconnects are grouped and labeled that should not be an issue and what does MC have to do with it?:?
 
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