how to get minimum size for conductors

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What is the minimum size of THHN/THWN wire permitted to serve a load that will draw 47amps? The load will not operate continuously. The branch circuit OCPD is a circuit breaker that is rated for 75 degrees C
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Welcome to the forum.

Your profile indicates apprentice so there are no free rides here. However the members here will be happy to help you learn how to find the answer.:)

What size do you think it should be and how did you arrive at that answer?
 
I dont want a free ride or I wouldnt be here. The people who teach these courses really lack in clear teaching in my opinion.

Now let me explain what I get to, I size the wire using the 310.15(B)(16) chart. I see that THHN THWN is in the 90C section. So we can arrive at 8AWG, now what throws me is the OCPD rated at 75C. So do I derate using another chart or should I be picking the wire from the 75C column instead of the 90??
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
210.19 states the conductor must have an ampacity not less than the load. In the case of a continuous load, the amapcity must be 125%
So a 47 amp non continuous load would be viewed as a just that, a 47 amp load.
You should look at all relative factors that might affect that amapcity such as ambient, dry vs wet location, etc.
A THHN/THWN conductor with an ampcity of 47 amps would be a #8 in a dry location.
You have recognized one factor that folks sometimes forget to take into consideration in the terminating limitations of 110.14.
In your situation, after any adjustments, you must keep the 75? termination limit into account. In this case the #8 at 75? is rated at 50 amps, adequate for your load.
 
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so let me run this by you in a different scenario so I understand it.

Its 47 amps, but lets say its a continuous load. so 47x1.25 is 58.75amps

this would take the conductor upto a #6 in the 90C column.

As we are working with the terminations at 75C I would double check the 75C column and as a #6 is ok upto 65A in the 75C I would still be ok to work with a #6 for the 58.75A continuous load right>?

I'm new so just wanted to make sure that its ok to post questions liek this that I struggle with. Is there any kind of extra curriculum you can recommend for me to?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Since the breaker and the terminations are 75C then you are limited to 75C in your selection of an overcurrent protective device for that wire. The 90C column may only be used for de-rating
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
so let me run this by you in a different scenario so I understand it.

Its 47 amps, but lets say its a continuous load. so 47x1.25 is 58.75amps

this would take the conductor upto a #6 in the 90C column.


As we are working with the terminations at 75C I would double check the 75C column and as a #6 is ok upto 65A in the 75C I would still be ok to work with a #6 for the 58.75A continuous load right>?

I'm new so just wanted to make sure that its ok to post questions liek this that I struggle with. Is there any kind of extra curriculum you can recommend for me to?
Essentially correct... but let's try to give you an even better understanding.

First, let's clarify that the 47A in your example is the calculated load. In many instances, the calculated load in amperes differs from actual or nameplate value. Code compliance is always based on calculated load [Article 220]. Calculated load does not include 125% factoring for continuous loads when determining conductor and overcurrent protection ratings [e.g. 210.19(A)(1), 215.2(A)(1)].

The reason I bring this up is highlighted red in the quote of your post above. Being a continuous load it will be factored by 125% in the conductor and overcurrent protection rating determination... but that does not change the the value of the calculated load (47A in your example). And the reason I am emphasizing this is because, as you've already realized, conductor sizing is two part... but the 125% factoring for continuous load applies only to the minimum size determination for termination temperature limitation, i.e. the 75?C comparison to table values in your example.

125% factoring does not apply to the conductor ampacity determination. Conductor ampacity is only required to equal or exceed the calculated load value (47A)... after applying adjustment and correction to the table value for the conductor insulation type and conditions of use imposed under 310.15(B), i.e. corrected for ambient temperature, adjusted for number of conductors within the raceway or cable, etc...

Then there's a third part that enters circuit compliance determination: The conductor must be protected by the overcurrent device at its adjusted and corrected ampacity. We can get into that if need be once you grasp the preceding.

****

As to recommendations for extra curriculum, there's plenty of documentation available, be it books or on the internet, some better than others... but IMO the best is to just continue to participate in forum discussions (here? ;)), because you'll get feedback and experience differing points of view. :D
 
So what your saying is that if the calculated load is 47amps, that would take into fact that its a continuous load and would still be 47A? Because if its the calculated load it would be calculated for its actual load while being a continuous load?

Thanks for the advice and input guys, I appreciate it!
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
So what your saying is that if the calculated load is 47amps, that would take into fact that its a continuous load and would still be 47A? Because if its the calculated load it would be calculated for its actual load while being a continuous load?

Thanks for the advice and input guys, I appreciate it!


No, that is not correct. 47 amps is the calculated load but for continuous load we must add 125%-- the load is still 47 amps but for sizing conductors and overcurrent protective device we would have to use the 125% calculation
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
So what your saying is that if the calculated load is 47amps, that would take into fact that its a continuous load and would still be 47A? Because if its the calculated load it would be calculated for its actual load while being a continuous load?

Thanks for the advice and input guys, I appreciate it!

No, that is not correct. 47 amps is the calculated load but for continuous load we must add 125%-- the load is still 47 amps but for sizing conductors and overcurrent protective device we would have to use the 125% calculation
I know what you meant, but to be accurate it's factor, not add. It would amount to adding 25%.

@sybenn...

Calculated load = 47A
Minimum conductor size and OCPD rating = 47A ? 125%
Minimum conductor ampacity* = 47A

*OCPD must protect conductor at its adjusted and corrected ampacity.
 
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