Number Please ... Could use some knowledge from a code guru

[msd]

Situation is an 11 unit apt. multi-family building. The smoke detectors throughout all units are on a single common circuit originating from the house panel. All of the smoke alarms/detectors are interconnected in each individual unit only. (ie.... unit A is not interconnected to unit B ect...)

What is the code issue with 120 volt devices (smoke detectors) in the individual units not fed from the sub-panel that feeds that particular unit.
Is there a violation somewhere? What is the code section? NEC, UBC, NFPA 72 or others?????

Notes:
the tenant has access to the house panel.
AFCI protection provided
OCD marked red and locked on per AHJ
hard wired with battery BU
wiring is code compliant.
detectors in proper locations ect .....
location CA, Los Angeles Dept. of Bldg. & Safety

Reasoning of Install:
local FD and AHJ want SD's and CO's in all units however, all units do not have power (vacant no meter).
POS property built 1950's , last permitted work pre 1988.

Please state code references and year.

I completely understand the safety issue but I need a code reference. I know its there somewhere.

 

[jumper]

First thing that comes to mind is this:

210.25 Branch Circuits in Buildings with More Than
One Occupancy.
(A) Dwelling Unit Branch Circuits. Branch circuits in
each dwelling unit shall supply only loads within that dwelling
unit or loads associated only with that dwelling unit.

However, I gotta look some more since this is a "life safety" application and there may be an exception that I do no know about.

 

[GoldDigger]

The interpretation has been made that what it "really" means is that a circuit originating in a panel dedicated to unit A (or located in unit A) may not serve an outlet in unit B.
That is a less restrictive condition and a reasonable one, but it does not seem to match the actual wording in the code.
The section clearly angel prohibits a breaker in unit A from supplying both a receptacle in A and a receptacle in B. How far beyond that it goes or was intended to go is a great topic for debate.
One potential solution for the OP would be a group of 120V alarms in each unit powered by a circuit local to that unit, but interconnected by a wireless network to link all units.
Would even a building wide FA system, with or without zones) meet the strict interpretation of the rule?

 

[kwired]

One potential solution for the OP would be a group of 120V alarms in each unit powered by a circuit local to that unit, but interconnected by a wireless network to link all units.

But that is what is they are trying to avoid in the OP, he said they have occupied dwelling units, but for whatever reason they don't always have power - therefore the smoke alarms wouldn't have power either. They are not interconnected to other dwelling units though.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Situation is an 11 unit apt. multi-family building. The smoke detectors throughout all units are on a single common circuit originating from the house panel. All of the smoke alarms/detectors are interconnected in each individual unit only. (ie.... unit A is not interconnected to unit B ect...)

What is the code issue with 120 volt devices (smoke detectors) in the individual units not fed from the sub-panel that feeds that particular unit.

In my area, the overall rating of a property comprised of two or more dwelling units is "commercial". So, in my mind, the house panel is not originating in a dwelling and the branch circuit is not, only, for a dwelling unit.

Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Detector ordinance are not in the electrical code, in my area, rather they are State and local building code. If the applicable ordinance for the building's jurisdiction includes the requirement for any kind of a common annunciator as part of this eleven dwelling unit building smoke and CO detection, then I would think its a slam dunk to apply 210.25(B). And, to my mind, the need to maintain smoke and CO detection in a dwelling of a multiunit building, even if an individual dwelling has its power shut off, also qualifies as "central alarm" if there is language in statute to require it.

2011 NEC
210.25 Branch Circuits in Buildings with More Than One Occupancy.

(B) Common Area Branch Circuits. Branch circuits installed for the purpose of lighting, central alarm, signal, communications, or other purposes for public or common areas of a two-family dwelling, a multifamily dwelling, or a multioccupancy building shall not be supplied from equipment that supplies an individual dwelling unit or tenant space.

 

[MasterTheNEC]

Situation is an 11 unit apt. multi-family building. The smoke detectors throughout all units are on a single common circuit originating from the house panel. All of the smoke alarms/detectors are interconnected in each individual unit only. (ie.... unit A is not interconnected to unit B ect...)

What is the code issue with 120 volt devices (smoke detectors) in the individual units not fed from the sub-panel that feeds that particular unit.
Is there a violation somewhere? What is the code section? NEC, UBC, NFPA 72 or others?????

Notes:
the tenant has access to the house panel.
AFCI protection provided
OCD marked red and locked on per AHJ
hard wired with battery BU
wiring is code compliant.
detectors in proper locations ect .....
location CA, Los Angeles Dept. of Bldg. & Safety

Reasoning of Install:
local FD and AHJ want SD's and CO's in all units however, all units do not have power (vacant no meter).
POS property built 1950's , last permitted work pre 1988.

Please state code references and year.

I completely understand the safety issue but I need a code reference. I know its there somewhere.

Well I am certainly no GURU (ironic isn't it):roll: but where I come from that would be a direct violation of 210.25. If the building was required to have a fire alarm system then it would be governed by the International Building Code and the NFPA 72 for installation practices. These simply sound like Smoke Alarms which should be supplied by each unit panel. However, if their is no power in the units then I am not sure I would want power to the smoke alarms in those units. If they are not interconnected with other units anyway chances of someone hearing them or reacting to them would be slim in my opinion.

 

[msd]

I don't think 210.25 (B) applys here at all. The inside of a dwelling unit is not a common area.

What prohibits a circuit on the house panel from powering utilization equipment ( the SD's & CO ) inside the dwelling unit.


THESE SIMPLY ARE Smoke Alarms which should be supplied by each unit panel. However, if their is no power in the units the AHJ wants active protection. I am hoping to come up with a concrete code reference.

 

[msd]

to elebotate a little bit

to elebotate a little bit

The local AHJ does periodic building inspections for SD's, and now CO alarms in rental units.

AHJ will not sign-off without verifying "functional alarms in all units" and does not consider battery power only as acceptable.

Units are in need of remodel and no plans to rent in the near future. The electric & gas has been disconnected by the utility.

Hence why the request for single circuit feed to the SD and CO alarms inside the units, and possibly incorporating stairwell lighting on the same circuit as a visual indicator of breaker status.

NOTE:
the AHJ for the SD & CO inspection is the "LA Housing + Community Investment Dept." not the Dept. of Building and Safety.

I'll call Building & \Safety and find out if this is code compliant. But I am pretty sure it is not. If it is, it should not be. IMHO

 

[al hildenbrand]

THESE SIMPLY ARE Smoke Alarms which should be supplied by each unit panel. However, if their is no power in the units the AHJ wants active protection. I am hoping to come up with a concrete code reference.

AHJ will not sign-off without verifying "functional alarms in all units" and does not consider battery power only as acceptable.

OK. So your current understanding is that the Smoke & CO detection equipment and its installation is exactly as if it were in a stand alone single family dwelling on its own parcel of land. . . except, for the close proximity of the immediate dwellings in the multi-family occupancy that share a common wall or floor or ceiling, and all who happen to be in the common areas directly adjacent to a specific dwelling unit.

Because of the close proximity of other dwellings and occupants, I think the really huge umbrella of "for other purposes" in 210.25(B) is what you have to defeat.

If your Smoke and CO detector inspector is citing a statute to require the line voltage to the detectors be maintained inside a dwelling unit that has its electrical supply shut off, THAT is the ordinance language you have to find and argue from.

Following on GoldDigger's observation in post #3, it is my opinion that 210.25(B) is substantially different from 210.25(A) in that is does not restrict the branch circuit to being ONLY installed in public or common areas.

2014 NEC 210.25(B)

Branch circuits installed for . . . other purposes for public or common areas of . . . a multifamily dwelling . . . shall not be supplied from equipment that supplies an individual dwelling unit or tenant space.

Rather, 210.25(B) ONLY says the branch circuit can NOT be SUPPLIED FROM a dwelling, and does not restrict the location of the utilization equipment nor where the branch circuit is installed.

 

[kwired]

Following on GoldDigger's observation in post #3, it is my opinion that 210.25(B) is substantially different from 210.25(A) in that is does not restrict the branch circuit to being ONLY installed in public or common areas. Rather, 210.25(B) ONLY says the branch circuit can NOT be SUPPLIED FROM a dwelling, and does not restrict the location of the utilization equipment nor where the branch circuit is installed.

I have to agree with that.

I don't think there is anything prohibiting additional feeds to the dwelling unit (for any purpose), they just can not originate in another dwelling unit, has to be some kind of "house panel".

 

[MasterTheNEC]

I have to agree with that.

I don't think there is anything prohibiting additional feeds to the dwelling unit (for any purpose), they just can not originate in another dwelling unit, has to be some kind of "house panel".

In cracking open the NEC I would say I have to agree with that also. Provided the panel feeding this circuit is not also supplying other circuits to any of the dwelling units. However, If the "house panel" is supplying branch circuits for the lighting and other facets of the public area.....common hallways and such...then you have this circuit supplying the branch circuit you describe....would it then prohibit you from supplying lighting or other circuits in the general public areas from this "house" panel?

(B) Common Area Branch Circuits. Branch circuits installed
for the purpose of lighting, central alarm, signal, communications,
or other purposes for public or common areas of
a two-family dwelling, a multifamily dwelling, or a multioccupancy
building shall not be supplied from equipment that
supplies an individual dwelling unit or tenant space.

 

[al hildenbrand]

In cracking open the NEC I would say I have to agree with that also. Provided the panel feeding this circuit is not also supplying other circuits to any of the dwelling units. However, If the "house panel" is supplying branch circuits for the lighting and other facets of the public area.....common hallways and such...then you have this circuit supplying the branch circuit you describe....would it then prohibit you from supplying lighting or other circuits in the general public areas from this "house" panel?
(B) Common Area Branch Circuits. Branch circuits installed
for the purpose of lighting, central alarm, signal, communications,
or other purposes for public or common areas of
a two-family dwelling, a multifamily dwelling, or a multioccupancy
building shall not be supplied from equipment that
supplies an individual dwelling unit or tenant space.

The use of the word "equipment" opens the meaning rather wide, doesn't it?

In this eleven unit multi-family building, the Service Equipment supplies the individual dwellings. I could argue that you just used 210.25(B) to say that the so-called "house panel" cannot be supplied from the service that supplies the dwelling units.