Permanent stairs

[buck33k]

Is a pull down ladder in a single family dwelling considered permanent stairs?
NEC 2014 334.23 references 320.23. In accessible attics, cable shall be protected by guard strips as high as the cable unless not accessible by permanent stairs (paraphrased).

 

[luckylerado]

...(paraphrased)....

"Where this space is not accessible by permanent stairs or
ladders, protection shall only be required within 1.8 m (6 ft) of
the nearest edge of the scuttle hole or attic entrance."

 

[kwired]

Is a pull down ladder in a single family dwelling considered permanent stairs?
NEC 2014 334.23 references 320.23. In accessible attics, cable shall be protected by guard strips as high as the cable unless not accessible by permanent stairs (paraphrased).

IMO yes, the attic is always accessible because the stairs are attached, where without such stairs you need portable methods to gain access.

 

[buck33k]

Kwired, yes I think you are right...the pull down is a permanent ladder.
Maybe the code should be revised to omit any mention of ladders. As an example: "Cables shall be permitted to be run across joists without protection where not subject to physical damage such as near eve areas."
Why not? Permanent ladder or not, people will walk across the trusses in the attic.

 

[kwired]

I've got somewhat mixed feelings on the rule along with reality of the use of the space.

Different areas may experience some differences in use of that space as well, based on environmental conditions, as well as construction types having some impact.

If you have a truss roofing system - especially one that leaves little open spaces in the framing - that space won't get used for much at all, and is not even a point in installing permanent ladder/stairs yet some do anyway.

Most of the US also has enough temperature extreme, hot, cold or both that the space is getting filled with enough insulation that it also is not usable for anything.

There used to be a time where the attic was an additional floor in the home with a permanent stairway, like you see between normally occupied floors not a hideaway/pull down stairway, but most of that type of construction around this area that I have seen was homes built before 1950's when there was little or no insulation being installed in the home.

Today you may find the space over a garage used for storage, but usually the rest of the home has insulation (or at least a lot more then the garage) and is not desired to compromise that insulation for storage purposes.

 

[infinity]

IMO it's a pull down ladder which is different than permanent stairs.

 

[augie47]

I've got somewhat mixed feelings on the rule along with reality of the use of the space.

.

I didn't copy your entire post but wanted to say I agee 100%. This is one section that needs to be updated to reflect today's building methods. Regardless of access, many of the attics today with truss systems are far different from the old joists with knee wall construction commonplace when this section was written.
I brought the subject up at an IAEI Seminar and the basic answer was that it was one of the most common ignored sections in enforcement.

 

[kwired]

IMO it's a pull down ladder which is different than permanent stairs.

The wording in question says "permanent stairs or ladders". I see a pull down ladder as being a permanent ladder, so it still fits the context of those requirements.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

IMO, the space should be cleared no matter if there is a permanent stair or not. One can always use the space for storage so make the rule all inclusive.

 

[kwired]

IMO, the space should be cleared no matter if there is a permanent stair or not. One can always use the space for storage so make the rule all inclusive.

I use the attic space in my home for storage of about 20" deep loose fill insulation.

If I try to store anything else in there it just gets lost in the insulation.:happyyes:

 

[mivey]

IMO it's a pull down ladder which is different than permanent stairs.

The 2013 ROP stated that since the pull down was not mobile like a folding ladder that it is thus permanent and applies as a permanent access.

 

[infinity]

The wording in question says "permanent stairs or ladders". I see a pull down ladder as being a permanent ladder, so it still fits the context of those requirements.

I agree, but the OP asked if the pull down is actually permanent stairs which it isn't. I should have quoted him in my original post. :ashamed1:

 

[buck33k]

I agree, but the OP asked if the pull down is actually permanent stairs which it isn't. I should have quoted him in my original post. :ashamed1:

You're right about that Rob. I didn't catch that in my original post. Pull downs are ladders.

 

[kenman215]

IMO, the space should be cleared no matter if there is a permanent stair or not. One can always use the space for storage so make the rule all inclusive.

Your all inclusive idea is not a bad one, since it airs on the side of caution. A simple way of differentiating storage vs. non storage attic space would be by the truss type. Storage trusses are made with 2 x 6's on the ceiling side and are rated for live load. Now to stir the pot a little:

Technically, if a HO uses standard trusses in an attic as storage space, they are violating the building code around which those trusses were designed. Should we now have to do installs differently based on the presumption that a HO is going to do something else in violation of our or a building code at a later date? If that's the case, panel cover screws should be of a unique make/design so that only licensed electrical contractors and the local FD should be able to get access to them.

 

[kwired]

I agree, but the OP asked if the pull down is actually permanent stairs which it isn't. I should have quoted him in my original post. :ashamed1:

OP also paraphrased code content when asking his question, whether it is stairs or a ladder it is still permanent access method and meets the criteria of the code section that was being asked about.