Taps supplying a transformer(primary and secondary)

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I have a 20 MVA transformer 20KV to 600 V. protected by a 1200 Amp breaker. This transformer feeds a rectifier that converts this AC to 750 V DC for the electrical trains in my city.
I need to do a tap from the secondary bars to feed a 100 KVA transformer 600V to 480V.
The distance to the small transformer is going to be longer than 10 ft. but not over 25 ft. The tap wires leave the enclosure and will be protected by rigid pipe.
So far I am thinking to apply 240.21(B) (3). “Taps supplying a transformer (Primary Plus secondary not over 25 ft. long.)”
If I apply condition (1): “The conductors supplying the primary of a transformer have an ampacity at least one third the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the feeder conductors.”

Then: 1200amps / 3 = 400amps.

Condition (2) is OK as well as (3) (4) & (5).

My point in question is that in the small transformer the primary current is 83.4 amps protected by a fused disconnect with 110 amps fuses.
1. Do I need to tap with a 400 Amps. wire to the 110 amps disconnect and then continue to the small transformer primary with 3 AWG?
2. Do I need to use 400 amps. disconnect with 110 amps fuses?
There are other taps done in the past in other different stations (by other contractors) and the tapping wires are not that big in similar situations (similar loads). They just used 3 AWG all the way from the tap to the small transformers and by the way with wires over 25 ft. long.
Is this the correct article to apply or is there other that fits more properly?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Since you are installing an overcurrent protective device on the load end of the tap conductors, it really would be 240.21(B)(2). You will need conductors rated at 400 amps between the bus and the transformer disconnect. A 110 amp fuse requires a 200 amp disconnect, but I am not sure you can land 400 amp conductors on the lugs in a 200 amp disconnect.
 
Taps for tranformer

Taps for tranformer

Since you are installing an overcurrent protective device on the load end of the tap conductors, it really would be 240.21(B)(2). You will need conductors rated at 400 amps between the bus and the transformer disconnect. A 110 amp fuse requires a 200 amp disconnect, but I am not sure you can land 400 amp conductors on the lugs in a 200 amp disconnect.

Thank you. Received. Happy New Year. :)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You might need a 400 amp disconnect to be able to land your necessary 400 amp conductor but may need to use fuse reducers if you only need 200 amp fuses.

Not sure about other details of your application but if this is outdoors, 240.21(B)(5) should be able to be used and the taps can be unlimited length and you could run 200 amp conductor to a 200 amp overcurrent device.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I have a 20 MVA transformer 20KV to 600 V. protected by a 1200 Amp breaker. This transformer feeds a rectifier that converts this AC to 750 V DC for the electrical trains in my city.
I need to do a tap from the secondary bars to feed a 100 KVA transformer 600V to 480V.
The distance to the small transformer is going to be longer than 10 ft. but not over 25 ft. The tap wires leave the enclosure and will be protected by rigid pipe. ...

I can't help with your question, cause I am totally confused, as in completely lost. I swear I looked over the posts a half-dozen times looking for what I missed. Here is what I am seeing:

A 20MVA transformer, 20KV primary, 600V secondary (3 phase assumed):
Primary current = 577A
Secondary Current = 19,245A. Yep, 19 thousand plus amps.
If xfm Z = 8%, Available SCC (infinite primary) = 241kA
If Z = 12%, Available SCC = 160kA
Ye gods, that is really a lot.

What is this 1200A CB doing? It can't be a secondary CB. 1200A is about what I would expect for the primary protection.

... question is that in the small transformer the primary current is 83.4 amps protected by a fused disconnect with 110 amps fuses. ...

100KVA transformer, 600V primary, 480V secondary (again 3 phase assumed):
Primary current = 96A

Where did the 83A come from?

Truly, I am not familiar with electric trains - except for the Lionel I had 60 years ago. But I am not seeing how any of this fits together.

What am I missing? This is where you point out the part of the post I missed and I :slaphead:

The worm (seeking to understand)
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Something else that just occured to me - just thinking and curious:
Considering the secondary current is 19,000A, I surprised the 20MVA xfm even has a secondary CB. I would have expected the xfm is D - D and the secondary is connected directly to the rectifier. Secondary protected by the primary OCPD.

And, yes, I'm still absolutely aware that electric trains are clear out of any areas of my expertise.

The worm - Still looking for some education
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I've got a job starting tomorrow - be gone about a week.

I'm still really interested in understanding. So please, let me/us know.

ice
 

Iron_Ben

Senior Member
Location
Lancaster, PA
I can't help with your question, cause I am totally confused, as in completely lost. I swear I looked over the posts a half-dozen times looking for what I missed. Here is what I am seeing:

A 20MVA transformer, 20KV primary, 600V secondary (3 phase assumed):
Primary current = 577A
Secondary Current = 19,245A. Yep, 19 thousand plus amps.
If xfm Z = 8%, Available SCC (infinite primary) = 241kA
If Z = 12%, Available SCC = 160kA
Ye gods, that is really a lot.

What is this 1200A CB doing? It can't be a secondary CB. 1200A is about what I would expect for the primary protection.



100KVA transformer, 600V primary, 480V secondary (again 3 phase assumed):
Primary current = 96A

Where did the 83A come from?

Truly, I am not familiar with electric trains - except for the Lionel I had 60 years ago. But I am not seeing how any of this fits together.

What am I missing? This is where you point out the part of the post I missed and I :slaphead:

The worm (seeking to understand)

My reaction = same as yours. The 1200 amp breaker must be on the primary. If so, we're kind of in an apples/oranges situation. I almost posted something initially but chose not to.
 
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