Foyers

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I would like to know if a large Foyers is considered living space or a hallway when applying the previsions of NEC 210.52 for useable wall space.
 

apauling

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

a foyer in a single family residence???

a foyer is a lobby, or large ante-room. it is not a hallway. Since it is a residence, whatever you call the room, entry, porch, foyer. it needs to comply with wall spacing req's.

paul
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

I'm not all that sure Paul. Although I would include the receptacles, it might be a judgement call on the part of the AHJ as to whether or not it's a "similar room or area" under 210.52(A). At least I could see it being called either way.
 

apauling

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

I guess it really depends on if it looks like a room. If a bunch of bedrooms exit directly off the living room, the living room doesn't become a hall for outlet spacing. Some kitchens look like halls but that doesn't mean that outlet spacing can be altered there as well.

I think it was a real question and deserved a real answer. We could spend 10 pages arguing "similar", "closet", etc. We all know the intent of the one outlet in the hall exception, and if it looks like a hall, I wouldn't consider it a problem, even if it was called a formal dining room on the plans. But a foyer is actually defined as an ante-room to a theatre, has been extended to formal entry, and has never been defined as a hall.

paul :cool:
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Foyers

The older dwellings I deal with in the Minneapolis area also have "vestibules" that act as air locks between the outside and the foyer. The foyer will include the stairs to the next floor, a route to the basement, kitchen and living room. On occasion the foyer is expansive enough to have a baby grand in it. As a rule, there is not a lot of wall area what with all the doorways and stairwell.

But, I find my customers are very interested in adding receptacles to the old underwired dwellings for where the furnishings gather. In new construction, the common sense of this, to me at least, is to sell up from what might be argued as the NEC minimum. If the traffic pattern goes through paths that are 3' wide, its arguable its all a hallway, IMO.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

This one of those seriously gray areas of the NEC.There is no formal definition in the Nec that defines what is a hall/fpyer and what constitutes a simular area.We have inspectors that go under the pretense that if it a large enough area that allows a table or a cabinet to be placed then th 2 ft. rule applies.Same senario different imspector he considers it a hall/foyer and one required as set forth in the NEC,I tell my guys that if it large enough to put furniture then add a receptacle in accordance with the 2 ft.,6ft rules.Have had all to many finals where it passed on rough and was failed on trim out.To me it`s cheaper to add a receptacle than have drywall damage,tag,delays etc.Same as what constitutes a hall that requires a light and switch.I have had an inspector require a light and switch in a 3 ft. X 3 ft. area that has a barrel ceiling 7 1/2 ft AFF.This was just a deco arch but he called it a hallway and required a light and switch :(
 

mpd

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

in my opinion a foyer is no different than a hallway, I agree some of these foyers should have more than one, but I do not think the code is clear on it.I do not think a foyer is similar to the rooms listed in 210.52
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

The whole problem is the wording from defined areas/rooms to simular area,what constitutes a simular area :eek:
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Foyers

Defining these areas is troublesome. We've had hallway-entry problems in the past, I've tried to think up a definition. Architects are so much more clever at creating hallways than we are at definitions!
 

aelectricalman

Senior Member
Location
KY
Re: Foyers

I say just think about the contents of an ideal foyer and use common sense when adding plugs. I do not say this in negative connotation. Think happy thoughts. Breathe in , Breathe out. OOOOOssee fraaaba. :D
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Foyers

Problem is, the plans show one outlet in what I'd call a hallway, it looks like a hallway, and AHJ says it's a piece of a room requiring more outlets. In a difficult wall. Get chewed for adding more. Ya'mean?
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

I've done drawings for the building department in order to get the permit. I've never tried to be misleading but I'd expect the drawings wouldn't get accepted if something didn't fit the description. If it got noticed anyway.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

Yes the area should be on the plans but as we all know alot of times they are not.When you get into common areas the definition gets lost is it a hall is it a living area?? When it`s all saod and done the AHJ has the final say as to what it is.My problem is when it comes up on a final inspection.passed on rough but failed on final :confused:
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

My problem is when it comes up on a final inspection.passed on rough but failed on final
In a city like San Francisco, that can easily happen. I've never seen the same inspector twice on the same job there. And every one of them has their own list of importances and doesn't care what the last one said.

It's different in the cities I usually work in though. The inspectors all know each other and I'm at least familiar with most if not all of them. As long as I've brought an issue to someone's attention and a reasonable decision was made the original call will in all likelyhood be honered by any other inspector in the jurisdiction.

It's important that everybody knows about anything weird before the walls go up though.

If an inspector misses something the first time through and it's caught later he realy doesn't have the choise to ignore it. You're still supposed to do it right.

I wont say that I've ever hoped something wouldn't be caught on final, but I have crossed my fingers a couple times.


Allenwayne, I'm not saying anything about you, I just kind of got on a roll there.
 

allenwayne

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

No offense taken ,but I for one have this in mind.Inspectors should respect the decisions of their coworkers ( Other inspectors ) If inspector A passes a rough then inspector B shouldn`t over rule inspector A`s inspection.As long as no changes have been made.That`s why a permit plan has to be onsite for rough inspection.We have been tagged all to many times for not having it there.I have had the same inspector site wall spacing on final after he was the inspector on rough :confused: I have challenged this final ruling and asked him it`s the same wall now as it was when you did the rough inspection isn`t it ?He bent and told me to make sure that the next home was to have the proper spacing i agreed and we went on to the next inspection.Usually the question comes into play in a large hall area.Usable wall space?Hallway?All to gray of an area !!!As a rule of thumb I tell our guys If you can put a piece of furniture in a area use the 2 ft. rule.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Foyers

Originally posted by allenwayne:
but I for one have this in mind.Inspectors should respect the decisions of their coworkers ( Other inspectors ) If inspector A passes a rough then inspector B shouldn`t over rule inspector A`s inspection.As long as no changes have been made.
Allen that makes no sense to me whatsoever, inspectors should enforce the code.

Just because inspector 'A' misses something or maybe does not know a certain code does not mean inspector 'B' should play along. :roll:

It is not the inspectors job to help you complete 2000 homes this year, it is the inspectors job to make sure the 10,000 homes you wire in 5 years all meet the code as adopted by the people of Florida.

You should be installing all your work to code so it should not matter if you get inspector A, B or C.

The end result of what you want would be the dilution of the code into peoples opinions.

That would be bad for us as contractors, you get used to one areas 'opinions' then you move to the next area and find different opinions.

The code must be enforced consistently as written.
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: Foyers

I agree with Bob, but want to take it a step further. We all make mistakes and sometimes the mistakes cost us. During rough-in inspections, there are times that so much crap is on the site a thorough inspection is tough. I have seen stuff from loads of sheetrock to windows stored against a wall by the time the inspection is performed,I then I ask the installer if there is proper spacing, etc... Sometimes I will go back for a final and the original installer is not on the job anymore.
When the installer is on a job, sometimes for weeks, and an inspector comes to make an inspection and may only be there for an hour or so, than things can be missed and the ultimate responsibility falls on the license holder for that job.

I remember a few times when I was contracting, that the GC would contact me and say that one of my guys must have missed this or that, I would go to the job and sure enough the painters are there and we seem to be missing a receptacle. I would not curse out the inspector, my guy(s) would get whatnotfor.
 
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