under-cabinet lights

jwelectric · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

No sir Bob, it is my argument that it is a violation for some one to obtain a license to install electrical equipment and whether or nor it is to be inspected make an illegal installation.
This forum is a place professionals meet to discuss the installation of electrical systems that are code compliant is it not.

The statement as to whether a home owner can or cannot do something has no bearing on whether an installation is code compliant or not, wouldn?t you agree?

If in my debate as to whether a lighting outlet is allowed on a small appliance circuit is incorrect please show me where. The rules for small appliance circuits are clearly outlined in 210.52 (B) and (C). I can find no exception that allows this light to be connected to the small appliance circuit.

There are several instructors who use this site for their students as I do. I hope that the other instructors hold the truth about the code as close to their hearts as I do.

The cord that plugs into the receptacle is an extension of the small appliance circuit that supplies current to the lighting outlet that is the fixture itself.

Now comes the statement what about the home owner plugging a lamp in the small appliance receptacle, well they just violated 210.52 (B) (2) but we don?t address the home owner we only address the electrical contractor.

For the commercial contractors answer this. Is the four square box mounted to the bar joist the lighting outlet or is it the 2x4 that is laid in the grid? The problem as my class and me see this debate is that some think that the lighting outlet stops at the box. The definition says different.

jwelectric · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

Any point at which I connect anything outlined above what do I have?

George Stolz · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by iwire:
IMO these are light fixtures that also happen to be small appliances.

jwelectric · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.

Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a lamp or lamps together with the parts designed to distribute the light, to position and protect the lamps and ballast (where applicable), and to connect the lamps to the power supply.

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

[ April 30, 2005, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

iwire · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I don't know about that. "Appliance" doesn't include lighting items in it's definition. Utilization equipment yes, lighting fixture yes, lighting outlet no.

I never said there where lighting outlets, I said there where lighting fixtures (I should have said Luminaires).

If you look at the UL label on those fixtures they will be UL listed as Luminaires.

All that aside there is nothing that says a table lamp or a surface mounted strip is not also an appliance.

I also agree with you George that there is a large difference between connected and fastened.

I think this is a ridiculous thread that serves no purpose other than to meet Scott's challenge of 300 posts. :roll:

George Stolz · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
There are several instructors who use this site for their students as I do. I hope that the other instructors hold the truth about the code as close to their hearts as I do.

Look, the NEC is not the Bible, it's not the Torah, it's not the Quran, it's not a tome of faith, it's not a book that reveals it's wonders by means of prayer or meditation. It is a legal text used widely to govern electrical installations.

I like the NEC, it's fun for me to learn. I do not pray to it, or devine it's intent by portents and wonders. You're a religious man, as am I, you need to distinguish between that which is Godly and that was is concocted and created by men, as the NEC is. There is no mystery, there are no marvels. There are articles, and sections, and, upon occasion, they actually mean what they say. It is a flawed work of men that we have to revise every three years, and still can't get it quite to everyone's liking.

If you can't support your argument with the text at hand, you can't fall back on "others agree with me." That's a pretty cheap way out, don't you think?

With that said, I'll continue:

The cord that plugs into the receptacle is an extension of the small appliance circuit that supplies current to the lighting outlet that is the fixture itself.

So the bushing where the cord enters the light is the lighting outlet supplying the fixture? :roll:

The problem as my class and me see this debate is that some think that the lighting outlet stops at the box. The definition says different.

Show me.

George Stolz · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by iwire:
I never said there where lighting outlets,

I didn't mean to imply you had, sorry.

I think this is a ridiculous thread that serves no purpose other than to meet Scott's challenge of 300 posts. :roll:

I'm beginning to agree.

iwire · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.

Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a lamp or lamps together with the parts designed to distribute the light, to position and protect the lamps and ballast (where applicable), and to connect the lamps to the power supply.

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

None of that prevents calling a Luminaire an appliance.

JW I usually try not to be rude in this case I can not help it your argument is laughable.

Go back to the first page here and read Charlie B's post.

jwelectric · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by iwire:

All that aside there is nothing that says a table lamp or a surface mounted strip is not also an appliance.
:roll:

Click to expand...

The code makes a very easy distinction between appliances article 422 and light fixtures 410

iwire · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

You teach this stuff?

jwelectric · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by iwire:
You teach this stuff?

every day of the week and sometimes on the week ends

George Stolz · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by iwire:
You teach this stuff?
The following is an honest assessment, JW, take it or leave it. I know you're a good person. I believe your pride stands in the way of your judgement.

I believe that your attitude towards the NEC, and your approach to it, will continue to taint your ability to teach it without bias.

I have the humility to admit when I am wrong regarding my interpretation of a section, and I am grateful when the members here correct my inaccuracies. I am disappointed when I say incorrect things, and discover they went unchallenged later on. That leads me to worry that people new to the site, or to the code, will read what I write and accept it without putting it to the fire. That is how misconceptions start.

That is why I continue to battle you on this issue. Your title, "Instructor" gives you an elevated status. People on uncertain footing regarding these and other issues will believe you over me, a lowly residential electrician, nine times out of ten because of your profession. If you are wrong, you just affected a dozen people to go out and trust an error.

You can enjoy the benefits of being an instructor. It feels good to teach and share. But don't become drunk with the title. You are not a priest or a deity, you are just a man, as are the rest of us. You make mistakes just as Bob or Charlie or Sam or Wayne or I do.

It's not dangerous unless you refuse to admit them.

[ April 30, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

dillon3c · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by iwire:
You teach this stuff?

iwire,
I drove across my state,just couple weekends ago to sit in one of JW'S 40 hour classes for Electrical Inspector's course given..

Among some of the other students,were half-dozen other practicing Inspectors from around the State.Some of us are traveling around this State to hit every-KNOWLEDGED-Instructor's, given classes on Level III subject matter..

JW, is infact a very good/wide ranged of a knowledged Instructor in the NEC...Glad I had the chance to meet him in person, sitting in on his class at last-minute... (No regrets)..It's always good to get differant view points on the NEC language.-Thus the "traveling band of students"-..I got one more NC city to hit before DOI test time..This very same group of students,will be there also..

Didn't thank you before I left JW,thanx for getting me into your class at last minute..It was a very good class..

----> dillon3c

electricmanscott · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

If you look at the UL label on those fixtures they will be UL listed as Luminaires.

I think that they will actually be listed as portable luminaires even though they are to be screwed into place for no reason other than combating the forces of gravity. No different than plugging a table lamp or wall mount lamp into a sa circuit.

jwelectric · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Dillon
Thank you for the words of kindness

jwelectric · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

When I am wrong and it is proved to me that I am wrong I will humbly bow my head and beg forgiveness as I have done here many times. I never buy a pencil with out an eraser.

On this matter of installing a light or even plugging a lamp into a small appliance circuit is a violation of 210.52 (B) (2) no matter who is doing it. One of the arguments has been what is to stop the home owner from doing this. It doesn?t matter who does it is still wrong. Another argument is who will enforce it and that doesn?t change any thing either.

The question, is it a violation to plug a light fixture in a small appliance circuit that is attached under a cabinet, the answer is yes. This is very clear in 210.52 (B) (2).

The problem is no one here seems to know just what a lighting outlet is. Leave the house and go to one of the big stores around town and look at how the lights are wired. Read the definition of lighting outlet. Read the definition of outlet.

Look at it this way. An outside box is fed by a circuit and a two conductor cable dropped to a switch inside a bed room. One conductor is used to feed the switch the other to feed back to the light. Does this circuit need to be Arc Fault protected? Why? There is no grounded (neutral) present. This is a requirement in order to be an outlet.
If I was wiring fixtures end to end and installing a multiwire circuit so part would be on one circuit and part on another circuit where would the lighting outlet be in this case? The very same place as defined in article 100 for all lighting outlets. It would not be the four square box that fed this line of lights or would it?

The lighting outlet for the light in this thread is where? It has to have one right? If not where do the bulbs receive current? From the outlet, thus the lighting outlet that is attached to the small appliance circuit via the receptacle. Case Closed!!!

pierre · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Plugging a light fixture into the small appliance branch circuit receptacle outlet is not a violation. .52(B)(2) "shall have no other outlets" - does not mean a light fixture that is plugged into the "receptacle outlet"

The receptacle on a countertop can virtually have anything plugged into it. If it is too large for the overcurrent protection - the OCPD will open.

"Small Appliance Branch Circuit" is a NOMINAL name of the circuit for the purpose of the NEC, it does not mean a small appliance has to be plugged into it.

I was just thinking- who cares if someone plugs a light into the receptacle?

[ April 30, 2005, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]

George Stolz · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by jwelectric:
The problem is no one here seems to know just what a lighting outlet is.

No, the problem is that you refuse to accept the NEC definition of a lighting outlet. You think either: 1. A receptacle is a lighting outlet, or 2. a luminaire is a lighting outlet. Both of these ideas is demonstratively false. I have demonstrated it and you refuse to accept it.

The lighting outlet for the light in this thread is where? It has to have one right?

Not if the luminaire is designed to be supplied by a means other than by direct connection of the conductors!

If not where do the bulbs receive current? From the outlet, thus the lighting outlet that is attached to the small appliance circuit via the receptacle. Case Closed!!!

You can't dissect a luminaire and proclaim a cord or a ballast or a wirenut inside the luminaire to be the "lighting outlet." Ludicrous! A luminaire is an object, a lighting outlet is an object, a receptacle is an object.

I wish you would quit quoting definitions and ignoring what they are telling you!

iwire · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by pierre:
I was just thinking- who cares if someone plugs a light into the receptacle?

LOL

I think we are just responding to the challenge thrown down by Scott.

Three replies, going for 300! [/b][/quote]

iwire · Apr 30, 2005

Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by dillon3c:
JW, is infact a very good/wide ranged of a knowledged Instructor in the NEC...Glad I had the chance to meet him in person, sitting in on his class at last-minute... (No regrets)..It's always good to get differant view points on the NEC language.-

That may well be true, I have not met him in person and I do not think our real personality's always translate well through our posts.

I can not agree with his read on this issue, IMO he is off the chart on this one. We all go there occasionally.

JMO, Bob

under-cabinet lights

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