New Code suggestion on built-in microwaves

[packersparky]

Wow, that was from left field and took me by surprise. Gotta think about that viewpoint...

To be clear, I do not agree with JFletcher.

 

[jumper]

To be clear, I do not agree with JFletcher.

Not a problem, no one said you have to. My view is different from your’s also, but we somewhat agree I think.

 

[kwired]

Am I meeting code if I install 2 SABCs, use one for all the recs in dining room, pantry, wall kitchen, refrigeration, and all but one countertop rec and then use the other SABC for that one countertop rec?

Yes. You must have at least 2 SABC's and at least two of them must serve the counter top receptacles. Makes it more difficult to meet the requirement in some extremely small apartments that have almost no counter, but a multiwire circuit to a single duplex does meet that requirement in those situations also.

Before this change I actually got into an argument with a HI about adding a individual circuit of a 120V 15A to an existing, up to code, circuit for a window AC in the dining room.

I said no.

I explained that it would be a SABC and had to be 20A. He argued fiercely, I won.

The new exception would allow it.

I agree it would. Before you could run another SABC for an individual branch circuit, but now you can run same individual BC as a 15 amp circuit. You can't replace a 210.52(A) required receptacle with the individual BC though.

Now, let's open up the debate on whether the 2017 NEC exception for single receptacle outlet means simplex receptacle.:lol:

It does, see below.

And yes the way I read the exception in the 2017 code, the phrase "a receptacle outlet" rules out the use of duplex receptacles on additional 15 amp circuits to the kitchen... One would have to use a Simplex in my opinion.

Some are taking "a receptacle outlet" and saying a duplex is "a receptacle outlet", may or may not be, doesn't matter, keep reading past that wording....it says "supplied by an individual branch circuit" then look at art 100 definition for individual branch circuit, pretty certain it says something to the effect of "that supplies only utilization equipment". A duplex receptacle is capable of supplying more than one utilization equipment.

 

[packersparky]

Yes. You must have at least 2 SABC's and at least two of them must serve the counter top receptacles. Makes it more difficult to meet the requirement in some extremely small apartments that have almost no counter, but a multiwire circuit to a single duplex does meet that requirement in those situations also.

I agree it would. Before you could run another SABC for an individual branch circuit, but now you can run same individual BC as a 15 amp circuit. You can't replace a 210.52(A) required receptacle with the individual BC though.

It does, see below.

Some are taking "a receptacle outlet" and saying a duplex is "a receptacle outlet", may or may not be, doesn't matter, keep reading past that wording....it says "supplied by an individual branch circuit" then look at art 100 definition for individual branch circuit, pretty certain it says something to the effect of "that supplies only utilization equipment". A duplex receptacle is capable of supplying more than one utilization equipment.

The definition does not say an individual branch circuit must only be capable of supplying one piece of utilization equipment.

 

[LarryFine]

To me, a duplex receptacle is still singular, i.e., it's still only one outlet.

 

[kwired]

The definition does not say an individual branch circuit must only be capable of supplying one piece of utilization equipment.

No, but if you plug in two utilization equipment you are no longer supplying one. It does say it supplies only one utilization equipment. Most inspectors will not say it is an individual branch circuit if there is more than one receptacle outlet in the circuit. I will agree it is reading between the lines to some extent considering how it is worded.
Add: isn't a duplex receptacle on a two wire branch circuit considered a multioutlet circuit, and the reason you can put a 15 amp duplex as the only outlet device on a 20 amp branch circuit, but you can't put a 15 amp simplex as the only outlet device on a 20 amp circuit?

 

[JFletcher]

According to your logic 210.52(A)(1) would not allow duplex receptacles because it says "receptacle outlet" in the singular.

(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point
measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is
more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.

Fair enough, but the 2017 exception to 210.52 goes on to state "to serve a specific appliance", which is also singular. I would go so far as to say that installing even a Simplex receptacle from a 15 amp individual branch circuit on a countertop for future use or expansion is a technical code violation since there is no specified appliance for it.

also as I read the exception, daisy chaining two Simplex receptacles together would also be a code violation since they are serving, or would serve, multiple appliances.

If you have a duplex receptacle, one half of it would be for that specified Appliance, what would the other half be for?

I want to emphasize that this debate or argument is largely academic to me, Virginia will not be on the 2017 NEC for many many years to come, nor would I be allowed under current code to run a 15 amp circuit to a kitchen for the receptacles, other than the refrigerator or built-in microwave.. if I am Incorrect, and I very well maybe, I would rather learn it here than in the field.

 

[JFletcher]

According to your logic 210.52(A)(1) would not allow duplex receptacles because it says "receptacle outlet" in the singular.

(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point
measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is
more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.

Not to argue, but to further counter this point, I believe one could install Simplex receptacles every 12 ft in rooms in a house and be code compliant... In this case the code is saying no more than 6 feet from a receptacle, it is not limiting how many receptacles can be there... Could be a Simplex, could be a duplex, you could have 4 duplex receptacles in a 4 Gang Box every 3 ft if you wanted.

The language in the 2017 exception 210.52 is different.

 

[al hildenbrand]

According to your logic 210.52(A)(1) would not allow duplex receptacles because it says "receptacle outlet" in the singular.

(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point
measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is
more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.

Not to argue, but to further counter this point, I believe one could install Simplex receptacles every 12 ft in rooms in a house and be code compliant... In this case the code is saying no more than 6 feet from a receptacle, it is not limiting how many receptacles can be there... Could be a Simplex, could be a duplex, you could have 4 duplex receptacles in a 4 Gang Box every 3 ft if you wanted.

I agree with Fletcher here.

The "spacing" rule, ending in the "a receptacle outlet" is saying, at a minimum, there has to be a receptacle outlet within six feet of the receptacleS installed. There is no specified number attached to the plural "receptacles."

The example of a room with simplex receptacle outlets is a great example of the point.

Or, to say the point another way, the one receptacle outlet that counts as being within six feet could easily be in a multigang outlet box with, say, four duplex receptacles (eight total receptacle outlets).

P.S. Larry Fine, as you can read, I disagree with your take that a "box" is the outlet.

 

[Adamjamma]

Am I meeting code if I install 2 SABCs, use one for all the recs in dining room, pantry, wall kitchen, refrigeration, and all but one countertop rec and then use the other SABC for that one countertop rec?

yes because you have two sabc circuits but... common sense says you should be trying to balance your circuits to balance your load.

Or wait a minute... Living room cannot be on the SABC can it? Dining room and pantry are in it...

But, all the what if questions are exactly the reason why originally the country of Jamaica put a limit on three outlets per SABC... what if a person was boiling a kettle and making toast? What if a person was using the microwave and a toaster oven? What if they were running a portable washing machine

They then went to special circuits for refrigeration and for larger appliances... but we are supposed to label each of those with a sticky label so you know what the circuit is for... Argument now is over whether labeling the inside of the box is good enough so you know which breaker it is, or if it must be labeled on the face plate.

 

[Adamjamma]

I don't agree; the outlet is the box, not the device.

I agree here that the outlet is what they will call for and not the device itself so if you used a 6 outlet device here it would still count... something like the outlet strip i saw in another post for under the upper cabinets... on its own circuit.

But, does that outlet strip count for the SABC count as it mounts to under the upper cabinets rather than being in the wall above the counter?

 

[Adamjamma]

If we were talking hardwired only, I would agree with you.
For the article 100 definition of an outlet, an outlet is "a point on the wiring system which current is taken to supply utilization equipment". "A point", "a receptacle outlet" are both singular, and more to the point in the 2017 exception to 210.52, "a receptacle outlet' is singular.

Let me put it another way: if one were wiring under the 2017 NEC code, and put a duplex receptacle on a 15 amp individual branch circuit in the kitchen, a kitchen which met all of the requirements for sabc's, would you gig this as an inspector? As an installer, if you were red tagged, how would you defend your installation?

Lets say I used one of those four square 4 outlet single yoke devides... the inspector then tells me it is four separate outlets... It is one device that covers the power for four appliances possibly but... it is a single point in the wiring system to supply the utilization equipment and there is nothing in that definition to count the number of equipment that is being suppied or it would state supply one piece of utilization equipment.

 

[kwired]

Lets say I used one of those four square 4 outlet single yoke devides... the inspector then tells me it is four separate outlets... It is one device that covers the power for four appliances possibly but... it is a single point in the wiring system to supply the utilization equipment and there is nothing in that definition to count the number of equipment that is being suppied or it would state supply one piece of utilization equipment.

For load calculations in 220.14 that counts as four receptacles at 90 VA each. For a fixed multioutlet assembly (plugmold) it depends on expected loading could count 5 feet as one outlet @ 180VA or 1 foot as one outlet @ 180VA, regardless of how many receptacles actually are present. This all is for general use receptacles that are not intended for a specific load. If you have a specific intended load you must use the actual load for load calculations on the intended outlet. There still is no load limit per general use receptacle at dwellings for the sake of load calculations though.

 

[LarryFine]

P.S. Larry Fine, as you can read, I disagree with your take that a "box" is the outlet.

I would counter that not all outlets are receptacle outlets; a lighting outlet, for example. The ceiling fixture is not the outlet, the opening through which we access the conductors is.

 

[kwired]

I would counter that not all outlets are receptacle outlets; a lighting outlet, for example. The ceiling fixture is not the outlet, the opening through which we access the conductors is.

The actual "outlet" point is sometimes not all that clear. A luminaire mounted on a box - the "outlet" is somewhere between the box and luminaire, exactly where possibly is still debatable. It is not the box, the box isn't a conductor, if it is metallic box it certainly isn't a conductor supplying the luminaire though it could be part of the EGC path.

A luminaire with the supply wiring method directly entering the luminaire - that point is within the luminaire, but exactly where within the luminaire may also be a little debatable. Is it the point of entry of supply conductors? Is it at the point where supply conductors connect to conductors that came with the luminaire? If you have a continuous end to end run of linear fixtures don't you have supply conductors and an outlet within in each luminaire?

 

[LarryFine]

The actual "outlet" point is sometimes not all that clear. A luminaire mounted on a box - the "outlet" is somewhere between the box and luminaire, exactly where possibly is still debatable. It is not the box, the box isn't a conductor, if it is metallic box it certainly isn't a conductor supplying the luminaire though it could be part of the EGC path.

Okay, the outlet is the volume of space contained within the box.

A luminaire with the supply wiring method directly entering the luminaire - that point is within the luminaire, but exactly where within the luminaire may also be a little debatable. Is it the point of entry of supply conductors? Is it at the point where supply conductors connect to conductors that came with the luminaire? If you have a continuous end to end run of linear fixtures don't you have supply conductors and an outlet within in each luminaire?

I'd say no, only the point of entrance of the first luminaire.

 

[kwired]

Okay, the outlet is the volume of space contained within the box.


I'd say no, only the point of entrance of the first luminaire.

Isn't each individual luminaire an individual "utilization equipment"?

 

[LarryFine]

Isn't each individual luminaire an individual "utilization equipment"?

Yes, but only the first one receives power from the building electrical system; each one after that receives its power from the previous one.

Imaging several extension cords plugged in, one to another, to create a longer cord. Only the first one receives its power from the receptacle.

 

[jumper]

Herding cats is easier than keeping some thread on track...

 

[al hildenbrand]

I don't agree; the outlet is the box, not the device.

To me, a duplex receptacle is still singular, i.e., it's still only one outlet.

I agree here that the outlet is what they will call for and not the device itself so if you used a 6 outlet device here it would still count... something like the outlet strip i saw in another post for under the upper cabinets... on its own circuit.

The Article 100 Definitions of both Receptacle Outlet and Lighting Outlet equate these two-word terms with the single-word term Outlet.

So the Article 100 Definition of Outlet is where we land, in both cases.

2017 NEC
Article 100 Definitions
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

In my opinion the wiring system is defined in Article 100 as the Premises Wiring (System). The definition of Premises Wiring (System) specifies "wiring devices" as part of the wiring system.

The definition of Outlet requires us to find the "point" where the CURRENT is taken.

One cannot get current from a box or the volume in the box of a Receptacle Outlet. One CAN get current from the conductive contact mechanism in a Receptacle.

2017 NEC
Article 100 Definitions
Receptacle. A contact device installed at an outlet for the connection of an attachment plug, or for the direct connection of electrical utilization equipment designed to mate with the corresponding contact device. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke.

And here's the turn of perspective that is confused in this thread: The "contact device installed at an outlet" is talking about the Outlet point that current is taken which is the connection between the Utilization Equipment conductor and the conductor that is the contact device.

The Outlet is "right there" at the edge of the conductive contact device of the Receptacle. The Outlet is NOT back upstream into the wiring system. . . so it simply can't be the box, or the box volume.