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    #46
    Originally posted by kwired View Post
    I generally don't go with "what if" but this one I don't see as being a dedicated receptacle if there isn't some arrangement to make a dedicated space for said appliance. Open counter is fair game for any counter type appliance - and that is a big factor in creating the need for SABC's.

    Otherwise we could run several outlets on 15 amp receptacles and call them dedicated to a toaster, can opener, air fryer, etc. Of what I just mentioned, only the can opener has a significantly different load characteristics than a microwave.
    That would be an Appliance Branch Circuit, that would be a no no.

    Individual Branch Circuits only serve one piece of equipment.

    Not my fault if happy homeowner moves that equipment.

    Once you have met all the spacing requirements of 210.52, the exception allows you to add individual 15A circuits for dedicated equipment.

    Some would say that a simplex rec or a label is needed but I see no requirement for such.
    "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


    Derek

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by jumper View Post
      That would be an Appliance Branch Circuit, that would be a no no.

      Individual Branch Circuits only serve one piece of equipment.

      Not my fault if happy homeowner moves that equipment.

      Once you have met all the spacing requirements of 210.52, the exception allows you to add individual 15A circuits for dedicated equipment.

      Some would say that a simplex rec or a label is needed but I see no requirement for such.
      Well now you opened up another "what if" they plug a non dedicate appliance into the dedicated receptacle circuit?

      I'm not too worried about this rule effecting anything I do, but my opinion on what it means is what I have been stating. If someone wants a microwave on the counter and on a separate circuit - I run separate circuit to a duplex. Unless I make it clear it is supposed to be an individual branch circuit, it is just another SABC supplying a duplex above the counter. If it trips when they use a pizza oven the same time they are using the microwave - hopefully they learn one of them needs to plug into another receptacle, If not I guess I can install another circuit for a price.
      I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

      Comment


        #48
        Can we all agree that this is another poorly worded code section that might allow unintentional loopholes?

        Playing devils advocate here, because I still believe all SABC receptacles on the countertop need to be 20 amp, I don't see a great danger if one of them happens to be a dedicated 15. If it's overloaded, the breaker will simply trip. But you won't be able to plug two 1000 watt appliances in to that receptacle.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by kwired View Post
          Well now you opened up another "what if" they plug a non dedicate appliance into the dedicated receptacle circuit?

          I'm not too worried about this rule effecting anything I do, but my opinion on what it means is what I have been stating. If someone wants a microwave on the counter and on a separate circuit - I run separate circuit to a duplex. Unless I make it clear it is supposed to be an individual branch circuit, it is just another SABC supplying a duplex above the counter. If it trips when they use a pizza oven the same time they are using the microwave - hopefully they learn one of them needs to plug into another receptacle, If not I guess I can install another circuit for a price.
          Am I meeting code if I install 2 SABCs, use one for all the recs in dining room, pantry, wall kitchen, refrigeration, and all but one countertop rec and then use the other SABC for that one countertop rec?
          "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


          Derek

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by peter d View Post
            Can we all agree that this is another poorly worded code section that might allow unintentional loopholes?

            Playing devils advocate here, because I still believe all SABC receptacles on the countertop need to be 20 amp, I don't see a great danger if one of them happens to be a dedicated 15. If it's overloaded, the breaker will simply trip. But you won't be able to plug two 1000 watt appliances in to that receptacle.
            Before this change I actually got into an argument with a HI about adding a individual circuit of a 120V 15A to an existing, up to code, circuit for a window AC in the dining room.

            I said no.

            I explained that it would be a SABC and had to be 20A. He argued fiercely, I won.

            The new exception would allow it.
            Last edited by jumper; 11-05-18, 09:29 PM.
            "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


            Derek

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by jumper View Post
              Under the 2017, individual 15A circuits for a dedicated appliance can be installed in areas covered by the SABC rules. Does not have to be just refrigeration equipment anymore.

              210.52( B)(1)

              Old exception:

              Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an indi- vidual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.


              New exception:

              Exception No. 2: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, a receptacle outlet to serve a specific appliance shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
              I find this and interesting and what I consider perhaps slacking requirement in the code. It used to be that basically all receptacles in the kitchen and other 210.52 mentioned areas had to be fed from the two small appliance Branch circuits, exceptions withstanding.

              Now according to the 2017 as I am reading it for the first time, you may have individual branch circuit feeding a single receptacle in the kitchen in addition to the required small appliance Branch circuits.

              I have absolutely no idea aside from something like a built-in microwave which already requires its own circuit, or the refrigerator cut out, which will be obvious, how one would determine Appliance needs on a countertop to install these 15 amp or greater branch circuits.

              I do not see a problem with adding more branch circuits to a kitchen, regardless of amperage, however I think the code would have been better served just to simply mandate three or more 20 amp SABCs to serve receptacles covered by 210.52.

              if I am building a higher-end kitchen, why would I even mess with 15 amp dedicated receptacles to equipment that does not exist? Even if the homeowner told me "hey I'm going to put a Fry Daddy here or a Keurig coffee pot there", it cost next to nothing more to go ahead and make those 20 amp circuits and be done with it.

              As for countertop microwave versus built-in, one is more or less permanently mounted, one is not. to put it another way, if there is no built-in microwave, you do not have to wire for it. Honestly, it is not an NEC issue what the homeowner plugs into the code required small appliance branch circuits, that is a design issue, and the NEC is not a design manual.

              Now, let's open up the debate on whether the 2017 NEC exception for single receptacle outlet means simplex receptacle.
              Electricians do it until it Hertz!

              Comment


                #52
                There are things in a kitchen that don't need 20 amp circuits. Insta-hots, wine and beer coolers, small built in microwaves, disposals, warming drawers, under counter freezers and compactors all come to mind. But as JFletcher said, the location of those things is obvious and usually not on counter tops.

                Comment


                  #53
                  So, what is the problem with adding say some simplex 15A recs on a individual 120V 15A circuits to a countertop that is 210.52 legal with the required 2 SABC circuits?
                  "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


                  Derek

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by jumper View Post
                    Am I meeting code if I install 2 SABCs, use one for all the recs in dining room, pantry, wall kitchen, refrigeration, and all but one countertop rec and then use the other SABC for that one countertop rec?
                    Yes, unless the fridge needs its own.
                    Master Electrician
                    Electrical Contractor
                    Richmond, VA

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by peter d View Post
                      There are things in a kitchen that don't need 20 amp circuits. Insta-hots, wine and beer coolers, small built in microwaves, disposals, warming drawers, under counter freezers and compactors all come to mind. But as JFletcher said, the location of those things is obvious and usually not on counter tops.
                      If I were wiring a kitchen for all of those (and I have), I would definitely just include a third small appliance branch circuit rather than four or five extra 15 amp individual branch circuits. And I would conveniently ignore or forget any manufacturer requirement for a 2.9 amp wine cooler be on its own circuit.

                      NEC aside, anyone with that kind of kitchen is probably in the neighborhood of 750,000 plus here, probably 1.5 million in the Northeast and other areas... A few extra home runs and arc fault breakers are not going to financially kill the owners.

                      I see no problem with 15A individual branch circuits with a Simplex receptacle being added to a kitchen... As I mentioned earlier I often see lights jumped off the kitchen circuits, it would at least be safe if they jumped off of a 15 amp circuit than a 20. That is not a code problem so much as a remodeler problem, and giving them any more ammunition is not in our best interest.

                      also, I can imagine this will be a lot of fun with inspectors for several years to come if they see 14 gauge wire run to a box on the counter top. I suppose if there is only one cable in there, you won't get too much friction...

                      permit me a brief rant, at the rate we're going, it would not surprise me in the least if the 2029 NEC required every single receptacle in a kitchen to be on its own circuit.

                      And yes the way I read the exception in the 2017 code, the phrase "a receptacle outlet" rules out the use of duplex receptacles on additional 15 amp circuits to the kitchen... One would have to use a Simplex in my opinion.
                      Last edited by JFletcher; 11-05-18, 10:14 PM.
                      Electricians do it until it Hertz!

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by JFletcher View Post
                        And yes the way I read the exception in the 2017 code, the phrase "a receptacle outlet" rules out the use of duplex receptacles on additional 15 amp circuits to the kitchen... One would have to use a Simplex in my opinion.
                        I don't agree; the outlet is the box, not the device.
                        Master Electrician
                        Electrical Contractor
                        Richmond, VA

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                          I don't agree; the outlet is the box, not the device.
                          Agree, you got me on this once.
                          "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


                          Derek

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                            I don't agree; the outlet is the box, not the device.
                            If we were talking hardwired only, I would agree with you.
                            For the article 100 definition of an outlet, an outlet is "a point on the wiring system which current is taken to supply utilization equipment". "A point", "a receptacle outlet" are both singular, and more to the point in the 2017 exception to 210.52, "a receptacle outlet' is singular.

                            Let me put it another way: if one were wiring under the 2017 NEC code, and put a duplex receptacle on a 15 amp individual branch circuit in the kitchen, a kitchen which met all of the requirements for sabc's, would you gig this as an inspector? As an installer, if you were red tagged, how would you defend your installation?
                            Electricians do it until it Hertz!

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by JFletcher View Post
                              If we were talking hardwired only, I would agree with you.
                              For the article 100 definition of an outlet, an outlet is "a point on the wiring system which current is taken to supply utilization equipment". "A point", "a receptacle outlet" are both singular, and more to the point in the 2017 exception to 210.52, "a receptacle outlet' is singular.

                              Let me put it another way: if one were wiring under the 2017 NEC code, and put a duplex receptacle on a 15 amp individual branch circuit in the kitchen, a kitchen which met all of the requirements for sabc's, would you gig this as an inspector? As an installer, if you were red tagged, how would you defend your installation?
                              According to your logic 210.52(A)(1) would not allow duplex receptacles because it says "receptacle outlet" in the singular.

                              (1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point
                              measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is
                              more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by packersparky View Post
                                According to your logic 210.52(A)(1) would not allow duplex receptacles because it says "receptacle outlet" in the singular.

                                (1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point
                                measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is
                                more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
                                Wow, that was from left field and took me by surprise. Gotta think about that viewpoint...
                                "Electricity is really just organized lightning." George Carlin


                                Derek

                                Comment

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