NC Code Interpretations & Amendments

[Dennis Alwon]

NC Electricians

Joe Starling, the head engineer of the Office of the State Fire Marshal, and others have put together formal interpretations of some of the code issues that come up all the time. On this page there is also the 2017 amendments. It is worth bookmarking for future use.

The formal interpretations mean that if you install the electrical work based on these interpretations then you should have no issues with the local authority having jurisdiction. They may not be aware of these rules so you may have to show them. There are many areas of the code that are ambiguous so this is the states attempt to tackle a few of them.

http://www.ncdoi.com/osfm/State_Ele...ld1=State_Electrical_Code_and_Interpretations

 

[Gary11734]

NC Electricians

Joe Starling, the head engineer of the Office of the State Fire Marshal, and others have put together formal interpretations of some of the code issues that come up all the time. On this page there is also the 2017 amendments. It is worth bookmarking for future use.

The formal interpretations mean that if you install the electrical work based on these interpretations then you should have no issues with the local authority having jurisdiction. They may not be aware of these rules so you may have to show them. There are many areas of the code that are ambiguous so this is the states attempt to tackle a few of them.

http://www.ncdoi.com/osfm/State_Ele...ld1=State_Electrical_Code_and_Interpretations

Thanks for the Information. After I do the work, I hate to find out this is out there.

 

[kwired]

Thanks for the Information. After I do the work, I hate to find out this is out there.

Do you work in NC? That is where this applies.

 

[theJcK]

Good find Dennis. Thanks for the link. Happy holidays.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Gary11734]

Do you work in NC? That is where this applies.

We did a hospital in NC and a lot of work at Camp Lejune. The issue I have is reciprocity. I obtained an NC License using a Florida EC license without taking a test. This is where you could come into a State, get the license, and not realize there were amendments. I have different colors in my NEC for Amendments when I took the OK, SD, ND, Montana, Texas, and Arizona. But, I had to take the test to get them and made sure that I had all the updates before the test/s.

Gary

 

[kwired]

We did a hospital in NC and a lot of work at Camp Lejune. The issue I have is reciprocity. I obtained an NC License using a Florida EC license without taking a test. This is where you could come into a State, get the license, and not realize there were amendments. I have different colors in my NEC for Amendments when I took the OK, SD, ND, Montana, Texas, and Arizona. But, I had to take the test to get them and made sure that I had all the updates before the test/s.

Gary

There is a difference between an amendment and and "this is what we are telling our inspectors how to interpret this list of things" An amendment is on the law books if you violate something in the amendments they can cite the applicable law. The other list is more of a courtesy thing and technically is nothing official.

That said I don't expect a lot of states to readily volunteer such a list to out of state contractors, they might if you ask but don't expect when you get a reciprocal license or apply for permit for a project for them to go, by the way, take a look at this list here...even in state guys maybe don't find that list without doing some digging around on AHJ website or reading news letters, attending local CEU's, etc.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is a difference between an amendment and and "this is what we are telling our inspectors how to interpret this list of things" An amendment is on the law books if you violate something in the amendments they can cite the applicable law. The other list is more of a courtesy thing and technically is nothing official.

The link I posted has both the amendments and the interpretations of some common code sections.

For instance, NC has clarified that the wire to a 200 amp subpanel from a 200 amp service panel can be 4/0 aluminum or based on the old residential table which is now 83%, even if it does not carry the entire load of the service. Not sure why NC eliminated the 83% and went back to the old table.... They are actually the same and the new section clarifies quite a bit.

 

[kwired]

The link I posted has both the amendments and the interpretations of some common code sections.

For instance, NC has clarified that the wire to a 200 amp subpanel from a 200 amp service panel can be 4/0 aluminum or based on the old residential table which is now 83%, even if it does not carry the entire load of the service. Not sure why NC eliminated the 83% and went back to the old table.... They are actually the same and the new section clarifies quite a bit.

The new method makes it more clear that ampacity adjustments still apply when conditions for adjustments are present as well as making it easier to know how to apply adjustments. If no adjustments needed, you get same conductor size either way.

I heard the table is coming back in 2020? Anyone know if that is true?

We kind of have always had several interpretations that the State AHJ has used over the years as well. None of those interpretations are posted on the state website. Most them you find out in the field when an inspector says we have decided to allow this in that situation, or maybe in a local CEU class sometimes when the right topic comes up.

 

[Gary11734]

There is a difference between an amendment and and "this is what we are telling our inspectors how to interpret this list of things" An amendment is on the law books if you violate something in the amendments they can cite the applicable law. The other list is more of a courtesy thing and technically is nothing official.

That said I don't expect a lot of states to readily volunteer such a list to out of state contractors, they might if you ask but don't expect when you get a reciprocal license or apply for permit for a project for them to go, by the way, take a look at this list here...even in state guys maybe don't find that list without doing some digging around on AHJ website or reading news letters, attending local CEU's, etc.

At least they are trying to tell you what they want. I like that. They see the code more than just minimum which I have no problem with. Knowing what they want up front is the key. No different knowing what the General or Owner is asking the sub to do.

The AHJ is the final word. As long as I know what they are looking for up front, I do it. Not knowing up front is the problem for me because it costs time and money.

I learned this trying to pass Elevator pits as shown on the drawings and spec. Never happens the first inspection. Now, I tell the guys, put in the feed. run a couple of lights and call for inspection. After it FAILS, then they can tell us what he wants for that day, in that year! You would think if we could pass a 400,000 square foot hospital with no problems, we could pass a 6' X 9' elevator pit!



Gary

 

[kwired]

At least they are trying to tell you what they want. I like that. They see the code more than just minimum which I have no problem with. Knowing what they want up front is the key. No different knowing what the General or Owner is asking the sub to do.

The AHJ is the final word. As long as I know what they are looking for up front, I do it. Not knowing up front is the problem for me because it costs time and money.

I learned this trying to pass Elevator pits as shown on the drawings and spec. Never happens the first inspection. Now, I tell the guys, put in the feed. run a couple of lights and call for inspection. After it FAILS, then they can tell us what he wants for that day, in that year! You would think if we could pass a 400,000 square foot hospital with no problems, we could pass a 6' X 9' elevator pit!



Gary

You can't schedule a meeting before installation to go over those items you may question?

Amendments are the law and should be published, it is those things that are not amendments that you would want to discuss more than anything. But many of the items that may be on a list of unofficial interpretations of how things will be inspected are more so "allowances" that may be lesser requirements than strict enforcement to what code wording is, so if you installed to code you should be good anyway. If they want something to be more strict than code minimum it about needs to be in an official amendment.

 

[Gary11734]

You can't schedule a meeting before installation to go over those items you may question?

Amendments are the law and should be published, it is those things that are not amendments that you would want to discuss more than anything. But many of the items that may be on a list of unofficial interpretations of how things will be inspected are more so "allowances" that may be lesser requirements than strict enforcement to what code wording is, so if you installed to code you should be good anyway. If they want something to be more strict than code minimum it about needs to be in an official amendment.

Are we talking Amendments, or, interpretations? Amendments are done by legislatures. Interpretations are done by AHJ.

I looking at this through the lens of a business owner. Which means, how do you get the job done with the least amount of time with the safety of the public as the end result. If they have interpretations that they think are the way to go, don't keep them hidden in a desk. All we will do is have the Legal settled code (Current NEC) at hand which is where my flag will be planted.

 

[kwired]

Are we talking Amendments, or, interpretations? Amendments are done by legislatures. Interpretations are done by AHJ.

I looking at this through the lens of a business owner. Which means, how do you get the job done with the least amount of time with the safety of the public as the end result. If they have interpretations that they think are the way to go, don't keep them hidden in a desk. All we will do is have the Legal settled code (Current NEC) at hand which is where my flag will be planted.

Correct. They could have a list of official interpretations on some common questionable things. That in itself isn't a law, and could be challenged more easily than a law. Can still be beneficial to know how they intend to interpret such situations, and nothing hurts to ask if there is any such list of common interpretations when you come to a jurisdiction you maybe aren't familiar with. If you work in a particular jurisdiction nearly if not all the time, you likely figure it out at some point.

If you did a project here, all you will find in the law books and references to those law books is that the <currently says 2017> NEC is what applies. There currently are no amendments. There is and has been ways the inspectors as a collective have approached certain situations though, and some that have their own individual quirks, but none of this is documented any place I am aware of. A past director we had seemed to strive to have a certain amount of continuity across the board when it comes to how to inspect things. Not something easily achieved, but is still nice to know if one inspector allows something done in a particular way, maybe the others are looking at it the same way, they only get this by having meetings and discussing those somewhat unique situations. They don't exactly set rules at those meetings, they just try to get to a consensus of "this is how we as a collective want to interpret this particular thing" and if an installer protests a judgement call and calls the chief inspector about it, he will already have had discussion with his inspectors and will already be on the same page as the inspector was.

 

[Gary11734]

Correct. They could have a list of official interpretations on some common questionable things. That in itself isn't a law, and could be challenged more easily than a law. Can still be beneficial to know how they intend to interpret such situations, and nothing hurts to ask if there is any such list of common interpretations when you come to a jurisdiction you maybe aren't familiar with. If you work in a particular jurisdiction nearly if not all the time, you likely figure it out at some point.

If you did a project here, all you will find in the law books and references to those law books is that the <currently says 2017> NEC is what applies. There currently are no amendments. There is and has been ways the inspectors as a collective have approached certain situations though, and some that have their own individual quirks, but none of this is documented any place I am aware of. A past director we had seemed to strive to have a certain amount of continuity across the board when it comes to how to inspect things. Not something easily Iachieved, but is still nice to know if one inspector allows something done in a particular way, maybe the others are looking at it the same way, they only get this by having meetings and discussing those somewhat unique situations. They don't exactly set rules at those meetings, they just try to get to a consensus of "this is how we as a collective want to interpret this particular thing" and if an installer protests a judgement call and calls the chief inspector about it, he will already have had discussion with his inspectors and will already be on the same page as the inspector was.

I had all kinds of inspectors at the hospital. Plus the engineer had his own ideas. And the General, basically clueless. Throw in the fact that the hospital was state-owned, you had one big cluster .... It's like throwing up ten balls in the air and trying to figure which one to catch with two hands. The Military base was the easiest.

 

[kwired]

I had all kinds of inspectors at the hospital. Plus the engineer had his own ideas. And the General, basically clueless. Throw in the fact that the hospital was state-owned, you had one big cluster .... It's like throwing up ten balls in the air and trying to figure which one to catch with two hands. The Military base was the easiest.

I'm guessing that means more than just an electrical inspector, some possibilities are fire alarm, elevator, mechanical, even health officials. Electrical inspector may actually have been one of the easier ones for you to comply with if the work you do is primarily electrical related.

 

[tortuga]

My take away from skimming that is NC is really concerned with issues regarding residential service change/upgrade type work.
They have really put allot of thought into old 3 wire ranges and dryers with no ECG in various situations.

However I think the NC Amendment to 250.140 adding Exception No. 2 is redundant as that is already allowed by 250.130(C) :

250.140 Exception No. 2 For existing branch-circuit
installations only where an equipment grounding
conductor is not present in the outlet or junction
box, an equipment grounding conductor sized in
accordance with 250.122 shall be permitted to be
run separately from the circuit conductors

What do you all think?
250.140
Cheers

 

[Adamjamma]

actually, I like that as it specifically allows you to run a separate wire, even if you ran the original in NM-B... Which used to have a no ground option...

Be surprised how often that comes up... how do I get a ground from the panel to the outlets if I ran cable that had no ground... Now it can be done by this code on its own path, no need to follow the cables or such...
Would make it safer to install it, and then add gfci or afci if one wanted to...in the areas you can fish a ground wire in, that is...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

My take away from skimming that is NC is really concerned with issues regarding residential service change/upgrade type work.
They have really put allot of thought into old 3 wire ranges and dryers with no ECG in various situations.

However I think the NC Amendment to 250.140 adding Exception No. 2 is redundant as that is already allowed by 250.130(C) :


What do you all think?
250.140
Cheers

You have to remember some of these interpretations where made before the 2017 code. Some were made many cycles ago