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replacing ceiling light with paddle fan - AFCI required?

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    #16
    Originally posted by tortuga View Post
    I have run into this with fridges, freezers, ceiling and bathroom fans on older two wire cable, as fans are motors 250.112(C) Applies, 410.44 Exception 3 does not apply to anything other than a 'luminaire' (fixture)..
    Yes, I see. Prior to the 1960's grounding & NEC section 250 is not required, if exiting building wiring is not modified. However most existing structures have been modified.

    Adding any window/wall/central HVAC, or attic/ceiling/bath/range-vent fans, or appliances missing extra-hard usage cords, triggers NEC 250.110/.112. Bonded outlets are now required for those appliances, but the existing building does not require a total rewire / remodel.

    For the rest of the existing building replacement code NEC 406.4(D)(2) applies, where GFCI's provide superior protection to antiquated grounding systems that remain hazardously energized during low-level faults.

    AFCI's should only be required for replacement receptacles 404.4(D)4, and new work over 6ft 210.12, which includes new switch legs >6ft for ceiling fans.
    Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

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      #17
      Originally posted by qcroanoke View Post
      I wouldn't. Even if it was.
      Best answer yet.

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        #18
        My original email to him in red, followed by his reply in blue:

        Hi Ted,

        I just want to follow up on our phone conversation from Friday, regarding the paddle fan/ lights we installed to replace existing ceiling lights at XXX Rd. I agree that article 210.12A requires Arc-Fault protection for all 120-volt, single-phase, 15-and 20-amp branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, etc. However, my interpretation is that based on the definition of an outlet, (a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment) this isn’t a new outlet. It’s a new box and new fan/ fixture. It also is not a new device, as it isn’t a device based on that definition. So I don’t believe that adding AFCI protection is required. I’m hoping you will reconsider your interpretation.

        I did post up this question on the Mike Holt Forum. Here is the link:
        https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=196109&p=1974396#post1974396

        I don’t know if it will get many responses, as it is a topic that has been discussed a few times over the years. This forum has some of the foremost code experts in the country that participate in many discussions. I’ve been on the site for a long time, and I’ve really learned a lot over the years. As I said, these opinions and interpretations carry no more weight than yours or mine, but it’s a good site, with many helpful members.

        Sincerely,

        John


        John,

        The work you did was a modification of the branch circuit wiring per Article 210 Branch Circuits 210.12 arc-fault circuit interrupter protection 210.12(D) extensions or modifications. The addition of the paddle fan is an additional outlet that requires arc fault protection. Article 100 Definitions - Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. Article 210.12 (A) arc-fault circuit protection would then apply.

        If anyone has any additional suggestions on how to convince him that he is misinterpreting this code, it would be appreciated. Otherwise I am still waiting as to whether the customer wants me to appeal his decision, or come up with the money to install AFCI breakers (and any associated troubleshooting/ repairs, if necessary).
        Formerly J Erickson as username.

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          #19
          Originally posted by JohnE View Post
          My original email to him in red, followed by his reply in blue:

          Hi Ted,

          I just want to follow up on our phone conversation from Friday, regarding the paddle fan/ lights we installed to replace existing ceiling lights at XXX Rd. I agree that article 210.12A requires Arc-Fault protection for all 120-volt, single-phase, 15-and 20-amp branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, etc. However, my interpretation is that based on the definition of an outlet, (a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment) this isn’t a new outlet. It’s a new box and new fan/ fixture. It also is not a new device, as it isn’t a device based on that definition. So I don’t believe that adding AFCI protection is required. I’m hoping you will reconsider your interpretation.

          I did post up this question on the Mike Holt Forum. Here is the link:
          https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=196109&p=1974396#post1974396

          I don’t know if it will get many responses, as it is a topic that has been discussed a few times over the years. This forum has some of the foremost code experts in the country that participate in many discussions. I’ve been on the site for a long time, and I’ve really learned a lot over the years. As I said, these opinions and interpretations carry no more weight than yours or mine, but it’s a good site, with many helpful members.

          Sincerely,

          John


          John,

          The work you did was a modification of the branch circuit wiring per Article 210 Branch Circuits 210.12 arc-fault circuit interrupter protection 210.12(D) extensions or modifications. The addition of the paddle fan is an additional outlet that requires arc fault protection. Article 100 Definitions - Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. Article 210.12 (A) arc-fault circuit protection would then apply.

          If anyone has any additional suggestions on how to convince him that he is misinterpreting this code, it would be appreciated. Otherwise I am still waiting as to whether the customer wants me to appeal his decision, or come up with the money to install AFCI breakers (and any associated troubleshooting/ repairs, if necessary).
          I think depending on how one interprets things you both can be right. I myself lean more toward a new outlet wasn't created, but can see it being interpreted otherwise by the AFCI extremists.
          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

          Comment


            #20
            Changing a standard light box to a fan rated box in NO way alters or extends the circuit.
            Same goes for changing the luminaire to fan/light.
            Ron

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by rcarroll View Post
              Changing a standard light box to a fan rated box in NO way alters or extends the circuit.
              Same goes for changing the luminaire to fan/light.
              Does it change the outlet, which is somewhat of an invisible point at times?

              I lean towards no, but will not claim it is definite no either because of the blurred line of where an outlet actually is at times.
              I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by kwired View Post
                Does it change the outlet, which is somewhat of an invisible point at times?

                I lean towards no, but will not claim it is definite no either because of the blurred line of where an outlet actually is at times.
                IMO, no. As an inspector, I would never make a call like that. To me, in this case, a box is a box.
                Ron

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                  #23
                  "I hold in my hand the hatchet used by George Washington to chop down the cherry tree. Over the years, the handle had rotted and was replaced with a new one, and later on the head rusted and was replaced. But it still occupies the same space in the universe."

                  Ask if you were to replace a receptacle, would AFCI protection now be required. Then ask if it was, say, a high-mounted clock receptacle, and you decided to replace it with a switched wall sconce, would an AFCI need to be added. Now, ask if the threaded holes were stripped and you replaced the box with another one, would an AFCI be needed.

                  An outlet is not specifically the box (some fluorescent lights are hard-wired, but are still an outlet), nor is the receptacle itself the outlet. The outlet is really the hole in the wall where the wires are accessible. You did not install or create a new outlet.
                  Master Electrician
                  Electrical Contractor
                  Richmond, VA

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by LarryFine View Post

                    Ask if you were to replace a receptacle, would AFCI protection now be required. Then ask if it was, say, a high-mounted clock receptacle, and you decided to replace it with a switched wall sconce, would an AFCI need to be added. Now, ask if the threaded holes were stripped and you replaced the box with another one, would an AFCI be needed.

                    .
                    Per the 2011 NEC 406.4(D) Starting January 1st, 2014, you are required to have AFCI protection for a replaced outlet.
                    Your other examples, I agree, no AFCI protection required.
                    Ron

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by rcarroll View Post
                      Per the 2011 NEC 406.4(D) Starting January 1st, 2014, you are required to have AFCI protection for a replaced outlet.
                      Your other examples, I agree, no AFCI protection required.
                      There outta be a law!


                      What did you think about the hatchet story?
                      Master Electrician
                      Electrical Contractor
                      Richmond, VA

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Thanks for the input guys. I'll just wait to hear from the contractor. Fortunately this is not on my dime. I appreciate these, and any other comments.
                        Formerly J Erickson as username.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                          There outta be a law!


                          What did you think about the hatchet story?
                          Yes, there outta be a law! No body can argue the point of the hatchet story.
                          Ron

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by JohnE View Post
                            Thanks for the input guys. I'll just wait to hear from the contractor. Fortunately this is not on my dime. I appreciate these, and any other comments.
                            Send the "inspector"? to 210.12(D). Clearly, this is for branch circuit modification, NOT box or fixture replacements.
                            Good luck!
                            Ron

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                              Over the years, the handle had rotted and was replaced with a new one, and later on the head rusted and was replaced. But it still occupies the same space in the universe." You did not install or create a new outlet.
                              I would say in your case you definitely modified the hatchet, and, created a new one.

                              The OP modified what was attached to the branch circuit and created a new look to it , but , did he actually modify the branch circuit itself ?

                              That depends on who you ask, and, that's why your going to get different opinions on what has or has not changed.

                              Some might say, "No" because he didn't change any of the wiring itself. Only what was attached to it.
                              Some might say, "Yes" he modified the branch circuit because it now has a different amperage draw on it than it did originally, and, regardless of right or wrong, it did change the characteristics of the branch circuit somewhat.

                              If I were an inspector I'd let it ride, but, I can also see where some could see it completely different.


                              JAP>

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by rcarroll View Post
                                Per the 2011 NEC 406.4(D) Starting January 1st, 2014, you are required to have AFCI protection for a replaced outlet.
                                Your other examples, I agree, no AFCI protection required.
                                What exactly is a “replaced outlet”?

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