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replacing ceiling light with paddle fan - AFCI required?

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    #31
    Originally posted by retirede View Post
    What exactly is a “replaced outlet”?
    I should have said receptacle outlet. Remove an old receptacle outlet & replace it with a new one.
    I hope that works for you.
    Ron

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      #32
      You changed the box at the ceiling outlet. The inspector is wrong.

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        #33
        Originally posted by jap View Post
        I would say in your case you definitely modified the hatchet, and, created a new one.
        At what point did become a new hatchet?

        Some might say, "Yes" he modified the branch circuit because it now has a different amperage draw on it than it did originally, and, regardless of right or wrong, it did change the characteristics of the branch circuit somewhat.
        You could do that by replacing a bulb.
        Master Electrician
        Electrical Contractor
        Richmond, VA

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          #34
          Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
          You changed the box at the ceiling outlet. The inspector is wrong.
          That sums up my argument and interpretation. I think it really is that simple. The outlet is the point at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. The box is just a box. If I removed the box and installed an old-work recessed light, it isn't a new or additional outlet.

          Taking it further, what if I didn't replace the box and installed fan on existing box, while lagging the fan support into the ceiling joist? I'd comply with 314.27(C) since the outlet box is not the sole support of the paddle fan, but I still haven't added an outlet? I had this conversation with the inspector on the phone, and he felt that even in this hypothetical situation that AFCI protection needs to be added, though we didn't dwell on it as I indicated I'd follow up our phone conversation with an email.
          Formerly J Erickson as username.

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            #35
            Originally posted by JohnE View Post
            ...we didn't dwell on it as I indicated I'd follow up our phone conversation with an email.
            This is better anyway. We don't just want approvals in writing. We want denials (with the flawed logic) in writing, too, so it can hopefully be corrected by those with the authority and better experience to do so, and appropriate training can be provided.

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              #36
              Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
              This is better anyway. We don't just want approvals in writing. We want denials (with the flawed logic) in writing, too, so it can hopefully be corrected by those with the authority and better experience to do so, and appropriate training can be provided.
              The inspector is required to notify the failed inspection in writing here in MA, in order for the appeal to be submitted.

              I just sent him one last email in response to his email that I posted earlier. I kept it fairly brief. Hopefully he will reconsider. If not, I'm back to seeing what the GC and housing authority want to do.
              Formerly J Erickson as username.

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                #37
                Originally posted by rcarroll View Post
                I should have said receptacle outlet. Remove an old receptacle outlet & replace it with a new one.
                I hope that works for you.
                I wasn’t trying to be facetious. We’re on the 08 code here and I no longer go to code update seminars now that I’m retired. So I’m not real familiar with the newer AFCI requirements.

                I thought you were saying that simply replacing the receptacle in an existing outlet location triggers the AFCI requirement per current code. Which seems crazy to me.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                  At what point did become a new hatchet? It didn't become a new hatchet, it became a completely modified different hatchet. The original hatchet evidently no longer exists.


                  You could do that by replacing a bulb.
                  Yes, even changing a bulb modifies the characteristics of a circuit if it doesn't draw exactly the same amperage as the original.

                  If you changed the bulb out to one that drew the exact same amperage, you haven't changed the characteristics of the circuit itself,,,you've only changed what was attached to the circuit.

                  That's why this issue could go on and on,,,,,


                  JAP>

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by JohnE View Post
                    If I removed the box and installed an old-work recessed light, it isn't a new or additional outlet.

                    Another good example to examine.

                    You started with a lighting outlet, you finished with a lighting outlet. You even started and finished at same locatioin - definitely didn't move anything more than 6 feet, and inch or two, maybe.

                    Is it a new or different outlet? That still not clear by NEC.

                    Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
                    This is better anyway. We don't just want approvals in writing. We want denials (with the flawed logic) in writing, too, so it can hopefully be corrected by those with the authority and better experience to do so, and appropriate training can be provided.
                    Pass or fail needs to be documented, sending copy to permit holder could possibly be optional, most places will give you failure/correction notices though, but a passed inspection notice may not be automatic to give any written or even electronic documentation without permit holder specifically asking. Some may even add on a couple dollars fee to send such notification.
                    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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                      #40
                      I wasn't so much concerned with the notice or even brief "reason" but getting the detailed thinking that may have only been in a phone call "clarification."

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by jap View Post
                        Yes, even changing a bulb modifies the characteristics of a circuit if it doesn't draw exactly the same amperage as the original.

                        If you changed the bulb out to one that drew the exact same amperage, you haven't changed the characteristics of the circuit itself,,,you've only changed what was attached to the circuit.

                        That's why this issue could go on and on,,,,,


                        JAP>
                        By that token, if you changed all the appliances in a kitchen, you would have to comply with the requirement.

                        And on, and on...

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by Chamuit View Post
                          By that token, if you changed all the appliances in a kitchen, you would have to comply with the requirement.

                          And on, and on...
                          Yep.

                          If one was to interpret that way.....

                          JAP>

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                            #43
                            As it is now, it's evident the wording is simply too broad.

                            I'm sure there will be more clarifications to come.

                            JAP>

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