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replacing ceiling light with paddle fan - AFCI required?

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    replacing ceiling light with paddle fan - AFCI required?

    If I am replacing a ceiling light in a dwelling unit family room or bedroom, with a paddle fan/ light, does the NEC require this new fan to have AFCI protection? Since this isn't a new outlet, I don't see that adding AFCI protection would be required. Your thoughts? 2017 NEC. To be clear, there is no new wiring. Simply removing the existing light and box, installing fan rated box and fan with light kit. I know there have been many similar discussions, I did some searching, and couldn't find anything closely related.
    Formerly J Erickson as username.

    #2
    Not required.
    Ron

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      #3
      Agreed: not. It's just another fixture, even with a fan box.
      Master Electrician
      Electrical Contractor
      Richmond, VA

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        #4
        I wouldn't. Even if it was.
        Sometimes I don't know whether I'm the boxer or the bag.

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          #5
          Thank you for the replies. I had a disagreement with an inspector over this. After explaining my interpretation, I haven't heard back from him. I am waiting to hear whether my customer wants to spend the money to add the AFCI protection, or have me appeal the decision to the state, which is a straightforward process that cand take a few months. The repercussion could be having to add AFCI protection to 15 units in a state housing authority property if they don't want me to appeal the decision. (This doesn't affect me financially, if I need to add the AFI's it is billable. The housing authority will ultimately cover it, and eventually at the expense of taxpayer. Albeit it not enough to "matter")
          Formerly J Erickson as username.

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            #6
            Originally posted by JohnE View Post
            Thank you for the replies. I had a disagreement with an inspector over this. After explaining my interpretation, I haven't heard back from him. I am waiting to hear whether my customer wants to spend the money to add the AFCI protection, or have me appeal the decision to the state, which is a straightforward process that cand take a few months. The repercussion could be having to add AFCI protection to 15 units in a state housing authority property if they don't want me to appeal the decision. (This doesn't affect me financially, if I need to add the AFI's it is billable. The housing authority will ultimately cover it, and eventually at the expense of taxpayer. Albeit it not enough to "matter")
            Your inspector's supervisor been involved, or is that the part that takes months?

            If I had such a situation my inspector would call his supervisor right in front of me, and we likely come to a decision right then and there. If I don't like the decision and don't want to comply, then it gets more complicated.
            I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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              #7
              Originally posted by kwired View Post
              Your inspector's supervisor been involved, or is that the part that takes months?

              If I had such a situation my inspector would call his supervisor right in front of me, and we likely come to a decision right then and there. If I don't like the decision and don't want to comply, then it gets more complicated.
              There is no supervisor. It's just him. Which is typical in this state, unless you are in one of the larger cities. If we don't get to the point where we see things the same, there are 2 choices. 1. Change it to what he wants, 2. Appeal to the state, which takes a few months. Actually 3 choices. I can do what he wants (to allow the contractor to collect final payment) and still appeal the decision to the state. But this option is only for self-gratification.

              I haven't heard back from him in a few days. Hoping he will reconsider.
              Formerly J Erickson as username.

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                #8
                Originally posted by JohnE View Post
                There is no supervisor. It's just him. Which is typical in this state, unless you are in one of the larger cities. If we don't get to the point where we see things the same, there are 2 choices. 1. Change it to what he wants, 2. Appeal to the state, which takes a few months. Actually 3 choices. I can do what he wants (to allow the contractor to collect final payment) and still appeal the decision to the state. But this option is only for self-gratification.

                I haven't heard back from him in a few days. Hoping he will reconsider.
                IOW any supervisor he has is not electrically qualified to challenge any of his decisions in said area? He certainly got hired by someone even if a board or council, and can also be fired by same, otherwise how did he acquire his monarch?

                Apparently no State AHJ or at least laws are written that they can't intervene, or they think they are too busy to care to intervene? Many times State AHJ still has authority over local AHJ's and sets some standards the locals must follow.
                I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by JohnE View Post
                  There is no supervisor. It's just him. Which is typical in this state, unless you are in one of the larger cities. If we don't get to the point where we see things the same, there are 2 choices. 1. Change it to what he wants, 2. Appeal to the state, which takes a few months. Actually 3 choices. I can do what he wants (to allow the contractor to collect final payment) and still appeal the decision to the state. But this option is only for self-gratification.

                  I haven't heard back from him in a few days. Hoping he will reconsider.
                  Was it a city AHJ or a housing authority inspector? We have them here for section 8 inspections, sometimes require things above the code, like an ungrounded outlet you can't just put in a gfi, you have to run a ground.
                  Last edited by GoldDigger; 02-02-19, 04:43 PM. Reason: fix /QUOTE tag

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by kwired View Post
                    IOW any supervisor he has is not electrically qualified to challenge any of his decisions in said area? He certainly got hired by someone even if a board or council, and can also be fired by same, otherwise how did he acquire his monarch?

                    Apparently no State AHJ or at least laws are written that they can't intervene, or they think they are too busy to care to intervene? Many times State AHJ still has authority over local AHJ's and sets some standards the locals must follow.
                    He would typically be hired by the town manager, or board of selectman. But they cannot overrule his professional decision. We have a procedure to appeal his decision to the State Board of Electrical Examiners. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

                    Originally posted by GerryB View Post
                    Was it a city AHJ or a housing authority inspector? We have them here for section 8 inspections, sometimes require things above the code, like an ungrounded outlet you can't just put in a gfi, you have to run a ground.
                    This was the Town wiring inspector, not an inspector from the Housing Authority. I've run into housing and health regulations/ codes that require more than is required by the NEC.
                    Formerly J Erickson as username.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by JohnE View Post
                      He would typically be hired by the town manager, or board of selectman. But they cannot overrule his professional decision. We have a procedure to appeal his decision to the State Board of Electrical Examiners. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.



                      This was the Town wiring inspector, not an inspector from the Housing Authority. I've run into housing and health regulations/ codes that require more than is required by the NEC.
                      Our code addresses modifications, extensions, and in 406 replacement receptacles. No mention of luminaires or fans. Guess you'll have to try and point that out to him. You would probably have to protect the whole circuit via a breaker. Could have issues, especially in a housing authority unit. If it's landlord owned they do all their own work and only call the electrician when they can't figure it out or need a permit.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by GerryB View Post
                        ..Was it a city AHJ or a housing authority inspector? We have them here for section 8 inspections, sometimes require things above the code, like an ungrounded outlet you can't just put in a gfi, you have to run a ground.
                        Originally posted by JohnE View Post
                        ..This was the Town wiring inspector, not an inspector from the Housing Authority. I've run into housing and health regulations/ codes that require more than is required by the NEC.
                        Our Housing inspectors also fail GFCI's protection of 2-wire cables, demanding grounding wire. The culprits are municipal inspectors, hired on behalf of section 8 housing authorities, with multiple layers of immunity from appeals.

                        These inspectors terrorize property owners right into arms of dirt-bag contractors, who charge thousands in unnecessary remodel construction. The response of private-property owners behind the Orange curtain (Orange county, CA), is to stop accepting HUD & section 8 vouchers.

                        Gulf-War veterans are the casualties of this exploit, since their Housing vouchers expire before finding a property. Some private holdouts still taking HUD are already occupied in Orange county. A small public-housing compound remains in Anaheim, but the last private owners opening new Housing vouchers are down to a few retirement communities, exclusively for age 62 & over.

                        Complaints about Housing inspectors are still raised at our Orange Empire IAEI meetings, where the education chair & senior municipal planner tries to describe all the barriers for appeal, which are never successful.

                        Jurisdiction is the first barrier to appeal:
                        Inspection agents hired by State or Federal Housing authorities are not subject to the NEC, nor GFCI's per 406.4(D)(2) replacement code, unless Housing Authorities are specifically included by local or State laws.

                        Neither is IAEI, their education chair, nor municipal planners legally allowed share copies of any such laws, without being subject to prosecution from private publishers. The critical laws regarding jurisdiction are hidden behind proprietary firewalls, searchable only by appellate attorneys, and those with access to private-legal databases, such as the old Lexis Nexis.

                        Bureaucracy Delays are another barrier to appeal:
                        Property owners trying to appeal unnecessary construction, and remodel contractors --imposed by Housing inspectors-- can get their occupancy revoked, waiting months to find out if any AHJ, much less any court is willing to hear the case.

                        Every one of my clients surrendered to this exploit, after getting screwed by these jerks that carefully avoid specific-contractor recommendation, since a conflict of interest would breach their Vail of immunity. Good luck if you decide to appeal.
                        Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by ramsy View Post
                          Our Housing inspectors also fail GFCI's protection of 2-wire cables, demanding grounding wire.
                          I have run into this with fridges, freezers, ceiling and bathroom fans on older two wire cable, as fans are motors 250.112(C) Applies, 410.44 Exception 3 does not apply to anything other than a 'luminaire' (fixture). If there is an accessible attic I often see a #12 Green fished in to retrofitted fan boxes where old two wire cable is still the supply.
                          There is no AFCI requirement when replacing fixtures like-for-like.
                          However 410.21 is a Gotcha for buildings built before 1985 with older 60C type TW and 'NM' cable. There have been many documented fires attributed to overheated wires in lighting boxes. I have never seen any residential wiring rated over 60C in an un-renovated older than 1985 building. Therefore 2 feet of new 90C wiring would need to be run to the fixtures that require 90C wire.
                          And in this case 210.12(D) Exception would still exempt you from AFCI.
                          Cheers
                          Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by tortuga View Post
                            I have run into this with fridges, freezers, ceiling and bathroom fans on older two wire cable, as fans are motors 250.112(C) Applies, 410.44 Exception 3 does not apply to anything other than a 'luminaire' (fixture). If there is an accessible attic I often see a #12 Green fished in to retrofitted fan boxes where old two wire cable is still the supply.
                            There is no AFCI requirement when replacing fixtures like-for-like.
                            However 410.21 is a Gotcha for buildings built before 1985 with older 60C type TW and 'NM' cable. There have been many documented fires attributed to overheated wires in lighting boxes. I have never seen any residential wiring rated over 60C in an un-renovated older than 1985 building. Therefore 2 feet of new 90C wiring would need to be run to the fixtures that require 90C wire.
                            And in this case 210.12(D) Exception would still exempt you from AFCI.
                            Cheers
                            What do you mean by run 2 feet of new wire, to where? I may have heard something about this in the past. A new fixture has 90C leads, can you install it on a box that has K&T in it?

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by JohnE View Post
                              He would typically be hired by the town manager, or board of selectman. But they cannot overrule his professional decision. We have a procedure to appeal his decision to the State Board of Electrical Examiners. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.



                              This was the Town wiring inspector, not an inspector from the Housing Authority. I've run into housing and health regulations/ codes that require more than is required by the NEC.
                              Sorry you have a one man inspection authority - that is often never good, especially if you get one of those people that think they are never wrong. Also too bad you appear to have a state authority that thinks they are too busy to do their job.
                              I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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