PVC Male Adapter

[larmee]

We do a lot of Block wall work for schools, jails and other projects. A typical rough in for devices on these walls would consist of PVC conduit with a device box with a PVC 90 turned out at the top for the stub out. I have seen many different methods on the stub out of the PVC at the top of the stub. Some electricians cut the PVC off even with the wall and put the box knock out over that pipe. Some electricians leave a very short PVC extension of the 90 out of the wall and then mount the box over the extension. Some turn the entire 90 out and use the male adapter and secure the box to the wall with a short conduit stub behind the box and tap-con. We have not ran into any issues with the local inspectors with cutting the PVC off and not using the Male Adapter. This may be that they are being lenient towards us, or don't know if its a violation , or if the NEC has made provisions for this. Obviously it is of great benefit to sheer the pipe off even with the block and keep rolling as it is a labor saver. However, I realize that if this is not the correct method we need to address it now to stay out of problem areas ahead. Thanks for your replies..

 

[jap]

We don't use PVC in block walls, we use EMT, but, either way, if you don't terminate the raceway to the box in an approved manor, I don't see how you could consider it to be installed as a complete assembly.

JAP>

 

[MAC702]

It needs to be terminated properly. One of our tricks when I learned working with poured walls was to female adapters flush with the concrete pour (taped until forms busted off) and then used a chase nipple from the inside of the box.

 

[oldsparky52]

It needs to be terminated properly. One of our tricks when I learned working with poured walls was to female adapters flush with the concrete pour (taped until forms busted off) and then used a chase nipple from the inside of the box.

This is a surface mount application, right?

 

[oldsparky52]

We don't use PVC in block walls, we use EMT, but, either way, if you don't terminate the raceway to the box in an approved manor, I don't see how you could consider it to be installed as a complete assembly.

JAP>

I agree it needs to be connected to meet code. If the conduit is secure in block or concrete and the box is installed over it with the conduit just inside the box ...AND the inside of the conduit is reamed, I don't see it as a problem (this is PVC not EMT, EMT would need to be bonded so "connection" to the box is paramount.

I am curious as to why the decision to use EMT over PVC?

 

[larmee]

PVC Male adapter

PVC Male adapter

Yes this is a surface mount installation. As far as the Female Adapter reply are you gluing the adapter to the PVC 90? that's obviously the problem we are having with the Male adapter being that it is on the curvature of the 90 degree stub out. As stated we have not had any problems with the inspectors giving us grief over this in any jurisdictions. I understand the complete assembly argument and I also agree with the bonding statement with it being PVC. We do not use EMT in block walls but to each
his on. It could become a big deal if the inspector did not like it...

I appreciate the replies...

 

[jap]

(this is PVC not EMT, EMT would need to be bonded so "connection" to the box is paramount.

I doubt seriously that the entire project is PVC conduit, boxes, and fittings.

The OP mentioned that some are simply mounting the KO's of the box over the PVC without a connector and locknut to fasten it to the box.

In the company I keep, this would be considered a hack job.

Once the PVC 90's out at the top of the wall, with metal boxes and EMT from there on, you're going to have to pull a wire type EGC in this homerun and bond it to the box anyway.

That wire type EGC is going to have to make a bond to the metal boxes attached to the PVC, just as it would have to be if the PVC was converted to Emt as soon as the stubup came up out of the conctrete at the floor.

So, the bond remains paramount regardless of how you choose to stub it up.

JAP>

 

[jap]

We do not use EMT in block walls but to each
his on.

And look at all the Shoddy work you just described it produces.

Boxes mounted over the pipe with no connectors, Male adapters glued on to the curvature of the 90's so the boxes get installed all cockeyed, a full PVC 90 stubbed out at the top with the box mounted on the end 6 or 8 inches out from the wall, ETC.....

90d stubouts are over rated.

We either stub up straight above the wall into the bottom of the box if there's ceiling space above the wall and go from there, or, put an offset instead of a 90 at the top of the stubout. The box has to have support other than the EMT 90'd out of the wall also.

If you play your card right, the block layer can simply notch the block to allow your offset to get out, then, you can use a connector into the bottom of your box, mount the box to the wall, and things will start looking as if you've done this a time or two.

We also do the same on sheetrock walls as far as offsetting out at the top instead of turning out a 90 but that's just the way we roll.

JAP>

 

[larmee]

And look at all the Shoddy work you just described it produces.

Boxes mounted over the pipe with no connectors, Male adapters glued on to the curvature of the 90's so the boxes get installed all cockeyed, a full PVC 90 stubbed out at the top with the box mounted on the end 6 or 8 inches out from the wall, ETC.....

90d stubouts are over rated.

We either stub up straight above the wall into the bottom of the box if there's ceiling space above the wall and go from there, or, put an offset instead of a 90 at the top of the stubout. The box has to have support other than the EMT 90'd out of the wall also.

If you play your card right, the block layer can simply notch the block to allow your offset to get out, then, you can use a connector into the bottom of your box, mount the box to the wall, and things will start looking as if you've done this a time or two.

We also do the same on sheetrock walls as far as offsetting out at the top instead of turning out a 90 but that's just the way we roll.

JAP>

Your opinion of our work methods make no difference to me. I am simply trying to find an answer on here not someone who thinks they know everything about electrical work. If you cannot be of help besides being critical I would appreciate it if you would stay out of it..

 

[jap]

Your opinion of our work methods make no difference to me. I am simply trying to find an answer on here not someone who thinks they know everything about electrical work. If you cannot be of help besides being critical I would appreciate it if you would stay out of it..

I'm sorry, I thought you were looking for advice, and, if these practices were NEC compliant.

From what you have described so far, even though the inspector hasn't called you out on them, they're not.

So, I'll stay out of it.



JAP>

 

[larmee]

I'm sorry, I thought you were looking for advice, and, if these practices were NEC compliant.

From what you have described so far, even though the inspector hasn't called you out on them, they're not.

So, I'll stay out of it.



JAP>

I am seeking advice and answers but those kind of replies are kind of personal. I have 40 years experience in the electrical field with Masters Licenses in 9 states as well as a Master Trainer for the NCCER and an OSHA authorized trainer for 10 and 30 hour courses. We are not a fly by night contractor and take our work seriously. I don't know everything there is about electrical work and never will. I am a 40 year master learning like a 40 year apprentice. Everyday something new. I am always seeking advice from others and always appreciate all input. Most will take offense though to having others methods called Shoddy. Thanks

 

[LarryFine]

I would think the box only needs to be attached to the conduit for individual conductors. A cable would make it a sleeve.

 

[oldsparky52]

I doubt seriously that the entire project is PVC conduit, boxes, and fittings.

Okay, but why is that a factor on what we are discussing?

The OP mentioned that some are simply mounting the KO's of the box over the PVC without a connector and locknut to fasten it to the box.

In the company I keep, this would be considered a hack job.

Is it a hack job to stub up a conduit under an open bottom switch gear w/out connecting it to the cabinet ? Same principle. Code compliant, no, but a problem, no (and the OP's inspectors apparently don't care or aren't aware).

Once the PVC 90's out at the top of the wall, with metal boxes and EMT from there on, you're going to have to pull a wire type EGC in this homerun and bond it to the box anyway.

That wire type EGC is going to have to make a bond to the metal boxes attached to the PVC, just as it would have to be if the PVC was converted to Emt as soon as the stubup came up out of the conctrete at the floor.

So, the bond remains paramount regardless of how you choose to stub it up.

JAP>

That's crap, stub up in PVC and you don't need to bond the conduit. I have no idea of what you are talking about. I was talking about bonding a conduit (EMT like you said you use).

 

[jap]

Okay, but why is that a factor on what we are discussing? Is it a hack job to stub up a conduit under an open bottom switch gear w/out connecting it to the cabinet ? Same principle. Code compliant, no, but a problem, no (and the OP's inspectors apparently don't care or aren't aware). That's crap, stub up in PVC and you don't need to bond the conduit. I have no idea of what you are talking about. I was talking about bonding a conduit (EMT like you said you use).

No, Stubbing into the bottom of a switchgear is not the same principle.
There are rules and allowances that differ for both types of installation practices.

Just because the inspectors don't care and aren't aware of something doesn't make something code compliant.

As far as the EMT stub up, you had mentioned that the connector bonding the EMT to the box at the top of the stub out would be "Paramount" in importance.
That connector to box connection would have absolutely no importance whatsoever.

Think about that for a second. the EMT is not in the dirt undernieth the concrete, its not allowed to be, its PVC under the concrete heading back to the panel, so, your going to have to bond at the top of the stubup with a wire type EGC regardless.

The EMT itself between the PVC Stubup at the bottom and the metal box at the top serves no return path purpose and therefore, that connector into the box at the top of the stubout is not the least bit paramount.

JAP>

 

[roger]

As stated we have not had any problems with the inspectors giving us grief over this in any jurisdictions.

Just because an inspector is oblivious to what his job is or what the specifics are to performing his job does not relieve a licensed EC from following the code.

Do I see a problem with the install? Not really except for the code violation itself but that won't go far in defense of an incorrect installation.

There are a number of ways to support a box mounted on a stub out, improvisation is the key word.

Roger

 

[rambojoe]

#1 look into a pvc box adaptor not a ta...one vote for just turning out stubs...

#2 even though this is a nec forum- dont blush if you slug bust the back of a 4/4-11.. to accommodate even two stubs of pvc. 27' up in some gym its still up to you to do it well, and quickly...

#3 I have almost always over punched block stubs, especially to keep the surface pipes straight. one problem that this fixes is crappy block notching, I imagine most know what im talking to. its hard to have good block to anchor to and not hit grout...

#4 T.A.'s always get destroyed by string anyway...

p.s.- its not flack youre getting- you asked and you are going to get all sorts of answers... don't worry about the resume here

 

[oldsparky52]

The EMT itself between the PVC Stubup at the bottom and the metal box at the top serves no return path purpose and therefore, that connector into the box at the top of the stubout is not the least bit paramount.

JAP>

It is if a nicked conductor should make contact with the EMT.

Edit: I think you just like to argue, :lol:

 

[larmee]

Just because an inspector is oblivious to what his job is or what the specifics are to performing his job does not relieve a licensed EC from following the code.

Do I see a problem with the install? Not really except for the code violation itself but that won't go far in defense of an incorrect installation.

There are a number of ways to support a box mounted on a stub out, improvisation is the key word.

Roger[/QUOT

I really regret posting this on this forum. At one time this was a really good place to go for advice. I am not looking for a defense to the inspector and I can assure I know that installations should be code compliant. I guess things have really changed here. Probably a good eye opener and will consider other sites for CEU's. I am done with this question and answer session.

 

[oldsparky52]

...

Just because the inspectors don't care and aren't aware of something doesn't make something code compliant.

...

JAP>

I agree it needs to be connected to meet code.....

In case you didn't read where I said I agree that it needs to be connected to meet code. IMO, it's no big deal.

 

[roger]

Just because an inspector is oblivious to what his job is or what the specifics are to performing his job does not relieve a licensed EC from following the code.

Do I see a problem with the install? Not really except for the code violation itself but that won't go far in defense of an incorrect installation.

There are a number of ways to support a box mounted on a stub out, improvisation is the key word.

Roger[/QUOT

I really regret posting this on this forum. At one time this was a really good place to go for advice. I am not looking for a defense to the inspector and I can assure I know that installations should be code compliant. I guess things have really changed here. Probably a good eye opener and will consider other sites for CEU's. I am done with this question and answer session.

Please enlighten us, what were you really asking in your first post? It seems as though you're simply looking for someone to pat you on the back and say it's Ok.

Roger