Relocating a Pool Deck Box

[goldstar]

I had a call this past week to relocate a pool deck box for a customer with a gunite pool. She wanted to permanently remove the diving board and move the deck box into a nearby shrub bed. She had the pool guy remove the diving board and cut a 4" x 4" trench in the concrete decking to the shrub bed. The pipe coming out of the niche for the light was 3/4" brass and had a 90 degree elbow stubbing up through the footing for the diving board. The footing for the diving board was not demolished. I wasn't sure of the correct way to do this so, I did the following :

• I cut the brass pipe to about 1 1/2" and cut a 3/4" slot in the end of that pipe
• I then installed the new light fixture with a 25' cord into the niche and out of the end of the brass pipe
• I then pulled the light cord along with a # 12 green wire through a piece of Carlon non-metallic seal-tight to the new deck box location
• I drilled and tapped the brass pipe and bonded the green # 12 to the brass pipe
• I then sleeved the flex PVC down into the brass pipe and sealed it with silicone caulking
• The new concrete will be poured over the flex PVC and the chances of ever installing a new light (if necessary) is a shot in a million (I advised the customer before doing this)

Does anyone have a better way of doing this (I don't think I'll run into this again in my lifetime but I'd like to know)? I know what I did is probably not absolutely Code compliant but I couldn't think of another way of doing this. I did not look down inside the niche but I'm assuming a #8 wire was used to bond it to the rebar of the pool shell. My intent was to make it as safe as possible. I also installed a new dead-front GFCI ahead of the pool light in the pool equipment area. The HO had it on a GFCI breaker about 100' away in the basement.

Thanks in advance.

 

[blkmagik21]

Did you ask the customer if she would be okay with a flush deck box?




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[Knuckle Dragger]

I'm sure others can add or correct this. I believe a #8 is required to the light and keep the box 4" above the deck and 8" above the water line.
I apologise I don't have my code book with me.

 

[goldstar]

Did you ask the customer if she would be okay with a flush deck box?

The alternative was to keep the deck box in place and put a planter over it - she didn't want that. Of course that would have been the easy way out.

 

[goldstar]

I'm sure others can add or correct this. I believe a #8 is required to the light and keep the box 4" above the deck and 8" above the water line.
I apologise I don't have my code book with me.

I'm guessing you would be correct if this were a new installation. However, I had to deal with the situation at hand. Installing a #8 inside a 1/2" flex PVC along with the SO cable from the light would have been a bear. That's why I re-bonded the brass pipe with the # 12.

I was more interested in what others might have done differently than what I did in this same situation (Code compliant or not). Personally speaking, if this were my pool I would have chosen to put a planter over the deck box and been done with it.

 

[david]

I'm guessing you would be correct if this were a new installation. However, I had to deal with the situation at hand. Installing a #8 inside a 1/2" flex PVC along with the SO cable from the light would have been a bear. That's why I re-bonded the brass pipe with the # 12.

I was more interested in what others might have done differently than what I did in this same situation (Code compliant or not). Personally speaking, if this were my pool I would have chosen to put a planter over the deck box and been done with it.

Why did you have to use 1/2 inch flex

 

[goldstar]

Why did you have to use 1/2 inch flex

I could have used 3/4" flex but I wanted to insert the pool end of the 1/2" flex down inside the existing brass 3/4" pipe that was stubbed up. Again, not sure I did the right thing but I thought it was the best solution at the time. In addition I wanted to re-use the existing metal deck box that had ALL 3/4" threaded hubs. I had to use a reducing bushing in the hub that the luminaire wire was in. BTW, the original installation did not have a # 8 installed. I'm guessing that the niche was bonded to the rebar during the original installation. The luminaire SO cable was # 16 and the wiring back to the pool equipment from the deck box was # 12 solid THWN (B-W-G) I believe.

 

[david]

I could have used 3/4" flex but I wanted to insert the pool end of the 1/2" flex down inside the existing brass 3/4" pipe that was stubbed up.

BTW, the original installation did not have a # 8 installed.

the # 8 copper wire type bond/ equipment ground is only required when the original brass Bond /equipment ground is not there

I'm guessing that the niche was bonded to the rebar during the original installation. .

That is not for fault clearing and both are required . Think of the brass or # 8 AWG as a redundant fault clearing path like what is required in hospitals. The under water light fixture redundant ground / bond has a up sizing requirement for the portion of the branch circuit from the deck box to the nitch that you do not see in hospitals.

edit Although the bonding grid is required to be connected to a #12 equipment ground to at least one branch circuit supplying the pool

 

[Little Bill]

the # 8 copper wire type bond/ equipment ground is only required when the original brass Bond /equipment ground is not there




That is not for fault clearing and both are required . Think of the brass or # 8 AWG as a redundant fault clearing path like what is required in hospitals. The under water light fixture redundant ground / bond has a up sizing requirement for the portion of the branch circuit from the deck box to the nitch that you do not see in hospitals.

edit Although the bonding grid is required to be connected to a #12 equipment ground to at least one branch circuit supplying the pool

The grid will, by default, be connected to the EGC when you land the bond wire on the lug of a pump motor or other equipment. The only place that I know of that directly says to connect the grid to the EGC is when using a double insulated pump motor with no EGC pin. I don't see anywhere that says bonding grid must be connected to a #12 EGC on at least one circuit supplying the pool.

 

[goldstar]

The grid will, by default, be connected to the EGC when you land the bond wire on the lug of a pump motor or other equipment. The only place that I know of that directly says to connect the grid to the EGC is when using a double insulated pump motor with no EGC pin. I don't see anywhere that says bonding grid must be connected to a #12 EGC on at least one circuit supplying the pool.

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. The niche is bonded to the EQBG via a #8 solid wire. The existing niche shell is metallic and WAS connected to the metallic deck box via a brass pipe. So, by its nature the deck box was essentially connected (or bonded) to the EQBG. Once I cut that deck box out and relocated it then it was no longer connected to the EQBG. Thus my reasoning for installing a # 12 wire between the brass pipe and the relocated deck box. Should it have been a #8 solid ? Maybe so but that will have to be a mortal sin I'll have to pay for if and when I get to heaven.:roll:

This is a recent article that was published in April issue of EC Magazine :

http://www.pceca.net/images/stories/underwater_luminaires_in_swimming_pools.pdf

 

[Fulthrotl]

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. The niche is bonded to the EQBG via a #8 solid wire. The existing niche shell is metallic and WAS connected to the metallic deck box via a brass pipe. So, by its nature the deck box was essentially connected (or bonded) to the EQBG. Once I cut that deck box out and relocated it then it was no longer connected to the EQBG. Thus my reasoning for installing a # 12 wire between the brass pipe and the relocated deck box. Should it have been a #8 solid ? Maybe so but that will have to be a mortal sin I'll have to pay for if and when I get to heaven.:roll:

you could also have extended it with 1/2" brass pipe, cut and threaded.....

i'm sensitive to swimming pools. bonding is a big deal. i've seen two people
die from wet niche fixtures. if you have an adequate bond, there will be no
difference of potential possible, and no shock hazard, irregardless of what
the code specifies.

here is how i have successfully demonstrated an adequate ground for a wet
niche fixture.

take a fluke megger. it will show voltage applied in the lower right of the screen.
tape one lead onto a piece of pvc pipe. take the other one, and clip to something
metal near the pool.

set it for 1000 volts. put the lead on the pipe in the water, and connect with the bezel
on the fixture. apply voltage. note the megger reading. it should be 0. dead short.

more importantly, note the voltage across the circuit. it should be one volt.
this indicates that with a thousand volts applied to the pool water, you have less than
one volt difference of potential. there is no shock hazard at 1KV level.

 

[david]

The grid will, by default, be connected to the EGC when you land the bond wire on the lug of a pump motor or other equipment. The only place that I know of that directly says to connect the grid to the EGC is when using a double insulated pump motor with no EGC pin. I don't see anywhere that says bonding grid must be connected to a #12 EGC on at least one circuit supplying the pool.

The grid will, by default, be connected to the EGC when you land the bond wire on the lug of a pump motor or other equipment.

(a) Double-Insulated Water Pump Motors.
(b) Where there is no connection between the swimming pool bonding grid and the equipment grounding system for the premises, this bonding conductor shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor of the motor circuit.

“Where there is no connection between the swimming pool bonding grid and the equipment grounding system for the premises”

It is more than a by default connection it is required that the bonding grid gets connected to the premise equipment grounding system. A non double insulated pump frame as you indicate is one of the bonding points permitted to make that required connection

I stated a no 12 copper because that is the smallest size a swimming pool branch circuit equipment ground is allowed to be

 

[david]

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. The niche is bonded to the EQBG via a #8 solid wire. The existing niche shell is metallic and WAS connected to the metallic deck box via a brass pipe. So, by its nature the deck box was essentially connected (or bonded) to the EQBG. Once I cut that deck box out and relocated it then it was no longer connected to the EQBG. Thus my reasoning for installing a # 12 wire between the brass pipe and the relocated deck box. Should it have been a #8 solid ? Maybe so but that will have to be a mortal sin I'll have to pay for if and when I get to heaven.:roll:

This is a recent article that was published in April issue of EC Magazine :

http://www.pceca.net/images/stories/underwater_luminaires_in_swimming_pools.pdf

The equipment grounding system for under water lighting is very restrictive to the point that a branch circuit equipment ground cannot be spliced with a wire nut

As already pointed out the smallest copper wire type equipment ground / bond from the nitch to the # 12 copper equipment ground in pool deck box is required to be a # 8 equipment ground / bond

This is a fault clearing conductor not a bonding grid conductor, the bonding grid conductor is on the back side of the nitch.

This terminal is in fact a stud that does connect the bonding grid to the green insulated conductor or brass conduit to the # 12 lighting branch circuit equipment ground

I would never knowing compromise the required fault clearing path that the code mandates

Should it have been a #8 solid ? Maybe so but that will have to be a mortal sin I'll have to pay for if and when I get to heaven.:roll:

Hopefully we pray for rather than pay for our sins

while we are at it we might pray for the families hurt when pool water gets energized and a loved one of a family gets hurt

 

[Fulthrotl]

Hopefully we pray for rather than pay for our sins

while we are at it we might pray for the families hurt when pool water gets energized and a loved one of a family gets hurt

i've been in front of a grand jury regarding a swimming pool electrocution.
i didn't do the work that resulted in the death.

however, i was on site a year and a half before the fatality, so i had knowledge
of the situation. i was in front of the grand jury on 3 separate occasions.

everyone, including the guy who cleaned the pool, and the pizza delivery guy
got sued for $2.5 million. including 20 john does and 20 jane does, in case they
missed anyone.

owner of the rental property went to prison for manslaughter. in his early 60's.
he lost everything but his primary house, that his wife homesteaded.

a college student lost her life.

i'll take photos of my pool, spa, and equipment after i bond them next week.

film at 11.

 

[goldstar]

you could also have extended it with 1/2" brass pipe, cut and threaded.....

Not sure how I could have accomplished that. The footing for the diving board was about 4" below the surface of the concrete deck and the 3/4" brass pipe extended up about 12". Once I cut the pipe down to about 1 1/2" there was no way I could thread the pipe.

]i'm sensitive to swimming pools. bonding is a big deal. i've seen two people
die from wet niche fixtures. if you have an adequate bond, there will be no
difference of potential possible, and no shock hazard, irregardless of what
the code specifies.

here is how i have successfully demonstrated an adequate ground for a wet
niche fixture.

take a fluke megger. it will show voltage applied in the lower right of the screen.
tape one lead onto a piece of pvc pipe. take the other one, and clip to something
metal near the pool.

set it for 1000 volts. put the lead on the pipe in the water, and connect with the bezel
on the fixture. apply voltage. note the megger reading. it should be 0. dead short.

more importantly, note the voltage across the circuit. it should be one volt.
this indicates that with a thousand volts applied to the pool water, you have less than
one volt difference of potential. there is no shock hazard at 1KV level.

I appreciate your input on this but I think I accomplished what I set out to do and that was bring the metal deck box to the same potential as the niche and the grid.