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2014 NEC, 406.4(D)(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles.

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    #16
    The Code Making panel determined it would be safer to have a non grounded outlet replaced by a GFCI than to have someone cut off the ground in the cord cap.
    Moderator-Washington State
    Ancora Imparo

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      #17
      Originally posted by PaulMmn View Post
      How about a 240 volt GFCI-- Only neutral involved is in the breaker box to power the electronics in the GFCI. Black wire out, black wire in; no neutral anywhere; neither black is grounded. GFCI still knows when there's a fault.

      Several interesting threads from the fora:

      From https://www.ecmweb.com/content/think-gfci

      From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=158467

      From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=102515

      From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66292

      In that scenario the GFCI is monitoring the 2 phase conductors.


      JAP>

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        #18
        The Neutral connection in the Panel is needed to energize the electronics inside of it to allow it to do so.

        JAP>

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          #19
          Originally posted by jap View Post
          The Neutral connection in the Panel is needed to energize the electronics inside of it to allow it to do so. JAP>
          Yes, but neither of the conductors the GFCI is monitoring is grounded. The neutral in the panel is just for the electronics.

          Likewise, for a 120 volt GFCI, it wouldn't care if either of the conductors it is monitoring are grounded or not. The 120 volt model wouldn't care if the electronics were powered by a 110-volt DC battery!

          IMHO.

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            #20
            Originally posted by jap View Post
            The Neutral connection in the Panel is needed to energize the electronics inside of it to allow it to do so.
            But that would just be a design issue of the electronics inside, not a fundamental function of how it works, right?

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              #21
              Originally posted by PaulMmn View Post
              Yes, but neither of the conductors the GFCI is monitoring is grounded. The neutral in the panel is just for the electronics.

              Likewise, for a 120 volt GFCI, it wouldn't care if either of the conductors it is monitoring are grounded or not. The 120 volt model wouldn't care if the electronics were powered by a 110-volt DC battery!

              IMHO.
              If one of the conductor in the 120v models being monitored wasn't grounded, you wouldn't have a 120v circuit to begin with.


              JAP>

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                #22
                Originally posted by PaulMmn View Post
                How about a 240 volt GFCI-- Only neutral involved is in the breaker box to power the electronics in the GFCI. Black wire out, black wire in; no neutral anywhere; neither black is grounded. GFCI still knows when there's a fault.
                Neither black is grounded, but the source neutral still is, and still needs to be, grounded. The neutral actually being used by either the GFCI or the load is not relevant.

                Even if the electronics in the 2-pole GFCI worked from line to line, and there was no neutral wire to the GFCI, the source still needs to be grounded for the GFCI to trip.
                Master Electrician
                Electrical Contractor
                Richmond, VA

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
                  But that would just be a design issue of the electronics inside, not a fundamental function of how it works, right?
                  Correct.


                  Added:

                  A GFCI will only trip if there is a current imbalance among all of the conductors passing through the current-sensing ring. That means that some current must be returning to the source along a pathway that does not pass through the ring. That means that some current is passing from a hot wire to the source through a person's body to whatever conductive surface they are touching that is directly or indirectly grounded.

                  That means that a supply conductor other than the hot wire being contacted is directly or indirectly connected to earth, meaning there is a conductive pathway between the contacted surface (earth, for example) and the other-than-the-hot-wire-being-contacted supply conductor. We call that non-hot conductor the neutral. If there was no grounded conductor, then contacting a hot wire and earth would not shock us.
                  Last edited by LarryFine; 05-16-19, 09:57 PM.
                  Master Electrician
                  Electrical Contractor
                  Richmond, VA

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