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    sketch code complaint

    Attached sketch I have main service breaker outside the building 30 feet away. From the outside main service breaker load side terminal you have four taps in conduit each going to disconnect inside building.

    Each taps enter the building and go inside 90 feet to Disco #1, Disco #2, Disco #3, Disco #4 which have overcurrent protection as shown.

    Four part questions:

    1. Outside tap can be of ulimited length however I have taps done outside then going into the building 90 feet. Which tap rule outside, inside apply and should their be disco right when they enter?

    2. Would outside feeder rule apply Nec 2014 Article 225.31 and 225.32 apply in this case?

    3. Would POCO allow such install without trough and meter in the building but main service breaker outside?

    4. Any other article that is non compliant with attached sketch?


    I appreciate your input



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    #2
    I don't like the idea of the service disconnect being 30 feet from the building. I acknowledge that 230.70(A)(1) says it can be outside, but does not give a distance limit. One could argue that "outside of a building" means "attached to an outer wall." One could further argue that a disconnect 30 feet away is not "outside of a building," but rather simply "outside." Taking this to an extreme, if you allow it to be 30 feet away, why not 100 feet, or 1000 feet, or in another county? If I were the AHJ, I don't know whether I could enforce this viewpoint. So perhaps it is well that I am not.

    However, I believe your design runs afoul of 240.21(B)(5)(4)(b). The overcurrent device at the end of each tap conductor must be "nearest the point of entrance of the tap conductors." Your sketch showing them 90 feet away would not satisfy that requirement.
    Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle
    Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

    Comment


      #3
      I don't believe this is compliant as the building can only be served by one feeder and all the disconnects should be grouped.
      They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
      She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
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        #4
        I think the attempt here is to say that the building is provided power by one, and only one, "service." The required building disconnecting means is intended to be the disconnect switch located 30 feet away. I believe if that switch were mounted on the outside wall of the building, it would be compliant from the perspective of the building disconnect. But you still have the tap rule issues that I mentioned earlier. You can't go 90 feet into the building before hitting the OCPD for each set of tap conductors.

        [Edited to add] Now that I think this through again, if you mount the service disconnect on the outside (or inside, for that matter) wall, you no longer are in the tap rule for "outside taps of unlimited length."
        Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle
        Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

        Comment


          #5
          Yes their is only one service into the 1600A service disconnect which is feeding building.

          The service disconnect is located outside 30 feet from the outside wall of the building. The taps are from the load side terminals of the service disconnect breaker and then they go into the building 90 feet.

          Would not outside tap rule apply or would 10 ft, 25 ft tap rule apply?

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            #6
            Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
            I don't believe this is compliant as the building can only be served by one feeder and all the disconnects should be grouped.
            All 400A, 200A disconnect are grouped in the building. What code section is one feeder feeding building? Also you are saying one feeder to feed building does that mean feeder taps as well?

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              #7
              I don't think a tap that travels 90ft inside the a building is an outside tap. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

              Interestingly, while 230.6 defines 'outside the building' rather precisely, 240.21, which cover taps, does not. So if you were thinking of nitpicking what is and isn't 'outside the building' you may just have to shut up and listen to the inspector's opinion.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jaggedben View Post
                I don't think a tap that travels 90ft inside the a building is an outside tap. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

                Interestingly, while 230.6 defines 'outside the building' rather precisely, 240.21, which cover taps, does not. So if you were thinking of nitpicking what is and isn't 'outside the building' you may just have to shut up and listen to the inspector's opinion.
                Right I am not trying to figure out inside or outside. Tap is made outside but either consider inside or outside their needs to be disconnect before 400A or 200A disconnect in building either near the point conductors enter or outside for tap conductors or within 10 feet once enter the building based on 240.21 10feet, 25 feet or outside unlimited whichever inspector determines. No?
                Last edited by hhsting; 06-11-19, 07:55 PM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by hhsting View Post
                  Right I am not trying to figure out inside or outside. Tap is made outside but either consider inside or outside their needs to be disconnect before 400A or 200A disconnect in building either near the point conductors enter or outside for tap conductors or within 10 feet once enter the building based on 240.21 10feet, 25 feet or outside unlimited whichever inspector determines. No?
                  I think the disconnecting means needs to be at the location the feeder tap enters the building. See 225.32. I don't think there's a difference between feeders and feeder taps in this context. Arguably the overcurrent protection can be 10 or 25ft inside the building but if you're putting in a disconnecting means why not just make it fused?

                  I also agree with others' comments above regarding other problems with this scenario. Your sketch is of something sketchy.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by jaggedben View Post
                    I think the disconnecting means needs to be at the location the feeder tap enters the building. See 225.32. I don't think there's a difference between feeders and feeder taps in this context. Arguably the overcurrent protection can be 10 or 25ft inside the building but if you're putting in a disconnecting means why not just make it fused?

                    I also agree with others' comments above regarding other problems with this scenario. Your sketch is of something sketchy.
                    All the 400A or 200A four disconnects inside the building feed panelboards for their individual tenant space. What other problems besides tap rules?
                    Last edited by hhsting; 06-11-19, 09:39 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand your drawing correctly. It looks to me that you have a 1600 amp disconnect outside and not on the building to disconnect the PoCo conductors. Then 4 200 amp circuits going into the building (not underground, right?) each one feeding a disconnect, then a meter, then to the tenant panel, right?

                      Where is the "service point"?

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by oldsparky52 View Post
                        I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand your drawing correctly. It looks to me that you have a 1600 amp disconnect outside and not on the building to disconnect the PoCo conductors. Then 4 200 amp circuits going into the building (not underground, right?) each one feeding a disconnect, then a meter, then to the tenant panel, right?

                        Where is the "service point"?
                        The 2 400A and 2 200A disconnects circuits are not underground but overhead into building.

                        Would not the service point be at the line side of 1600A service disconnect?

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                          #13
                          Np matter what "tap" rule you apply, the disconnects would need to be at the point the conductors enter the building (outside or inside nearest conductor point of entry)
                          As Dennis pointed out the AHJ likely would consider the multiple feeders a violation of 225.30. Would not be acceptable;e here.
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                            #14
                            You have "outside feeders" from the location of the 1600 amp disconnect to the inside wall of the building. The NEC requires the individual feeder disconnects to be close to the inside wall. Putting them 90 feet away is a violation. I gave the NEC reference in the second paragraph of post #2.
                            Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle
                            Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by hhsting View Post

                              Would not the service point be at the line side of 1600A service disconnect?
                              Does the PoCo sign off on this? They usually don't like to see customers have disconnects prior to their meter.

                              So, what stage is this project in? Design, or it's been bid and trying to get the bid designed, or just kicking the tires? (or hopefully not started but turned down)

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