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Res. kitchen appl. & rec on same ckt.

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    #16
    Originally posted by ramsy View Post
    I asked that question first, so please explain why Larry can't use this exception.
    You didn't ask any question. You said here's an exception that might apply.
    If Billy Idol is on your playlist go reevaluate your life.

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      #17
      Originally posted by ramsy View Post
      I asked that question first, so please explain why Larry can't use this exception.
      Because the exception wouldnt allow him to put the dishwasher on the SABC

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        #18
        Originally posted by ramsy View Post
        I asked that question first, so please explain why Larry can't use this exception.
        He can, but that is not the question he asked. He asked if it is compliant to supply the dishwasher off of one of the SABC's and the disposal off of the other SABC. IMO it would not be compliant. 210.52(B)(1) states that the two or more SABC's shall serve all wall, floor, and countertop receptacle outlets in the kitchen. 210.52(B)(2) states that the SABC's shall serve no other outlets than those mentioned in 210.52(B)(1). IMO the receptacles for the dishwasher and disposal are not wall, floor, or countertop outlets.

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          #19
          Originally posted by packersparky View Post
          ..210.52(B)(2) states that the SABC's shall serve no other outlets than those mentioned in 210.52(B)(1). IMO the receptacles for the dishwasher and disposal are not wall, floor, or countertop outlets.
          Yes I see, 210.52(B) exception #2 is not an SABC exception, nor specific to 210.52(B).
          Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

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            #20
            Originally posted by ramsy View Post
            Glad someone is paying attention, even if that part wasn't mentioned.
            Actually, this is the one part of the code that I personally would like to know how to write up a request for a change... As I feel that with the advent of GFCI and now in 2020 AFCI rules amandating every circuit in the house to have at least one if not both, and with the failure in certain countries or maybe possibly certain places in the USA to have access to breakers at reasonable prices that do the job, and such other factors, we need to get a clarification of the rules to allow an outlet above the counters to not be considered part of the two appliance circuits if it is simply put in place to give an accessible location for the dishwasher, or Fridge, or Freezer or Garbage disposal AFCI or GFCI requirements... Deadfronts may be preferred but until we see DP switch/gfci outlets available, would like another option and labeling a GFCI outlet with Fridge supply, or Dishwasher supply, or Washing machine supply, etc... in permanent marking like we have DP switches in UK and Europe above the counter just makes sense to me.
            Now, it may not be considered necessary by many, but I do not consider AFCI to be necessary when most of the concerns about Arc Fault are simply gotten rid of by A) using a properly designed stapler rather than a hammer, and B) using proper torque for all connections...
            But, current rules in the USA require AFCI, Europe is slowly joiniing in, with it being Optional right now, but slowly picking up pace... And finally, Jamaica seems to be inching closer to adopting the NEC, though the Wire Colors is currently the biggest hang up..lol
            So, who could help me write a code proposal better so we could get an exception to the idea that every outlet above a counter must be part of the small appliance circuits?
            Student of electrical codes. Please Take others advice first.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Adamjamma View Post
              So, who could help me write a code proposal better so we could get an exception to the idea that every outlet above a counter must be part of the small appliance circuits?
              Thats already in the Code...see post #11

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                #22
                For my question, the improper installation is existing. My concern is the panel labeling.
                Master Electrician
                Electrical Contractor
                Richmond, VA

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                  For my question, the improper installation is existing. My concern is the panel labeling.
                  How many times before have you used your Sharpie to mark a breaker "All Plugs & Lights".

                  What's wrong with your Sharpie now?
                  Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by ramsy View Post
                    How many times before have you used your Sharpie to mark a breaker "All Plugs & Lights".

                    What's wrong with your Sharpie now?
                    Just write it as you found it, if called out by the inspector, can you run a new HR? Let the customer know beforehand and price it for I'm here now and this much if it fails; Mr. Customer can roll the dice or fix it now.

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                      #25
                      I was told the home runs were run while the ceiling was open, so it's doubtful.

                      I could use "kitchen appliances" on the label. The fridge is on another circuit.
                      Master Electrician
                      Electrical Contractor
                      Richmond, VA

                      Comment


                        #26
                        If someone already mentioned this I missed it, some sort of touched on it but not all that clearly.

                        210.52(C):

                        In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
                        Typical fastened in place dishwasher or disposal is not a required outlet by 210.52 (A) or (C), and therefore is not a part of the SABC's.

                        A portable dishwasher certainly could plug into a SABC receptacle though.
                        I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by kwired View Post
                          Typical fastened in place dishwasher or disposal is not a required outlet by 210.52 (A) or (C), and therefore is not a part of the SABC's.

                          A portable dishwasher certainly could plug into a SABC receptacle though.
                          What if both dishwasher and disposer were equipped with plugs and plugged into receptacles?
                          Master Electrician
                          Electrical Contractor
                          Richmond, VA

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                            What if both dishwasher and disposer were equipped with plugs and plugged into receptacles?
                            Said receptacles need to be in the space occupied by the appliance or in adjacent space. Most cases receptalce(s) are under the sink - a place not covered by 210.52 (A) or (C), therefore not a SABC outlet.
                            I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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