Res. kitchen appl. & rec on same ckt.

[LarryFine]

I made the title short so it would all fit.

Is it okay to supply one kitchen-counter GFCI receptacle and a dishwasher on one circuit, and one other GFCI receptacle and a disposer on one other circuit?

Wouldn't this be okay as long as the hard-wired loads don't exceed 50% of the circuit capacity? (The appliances would not be on the GFCI load terminals.)

 

[Sierrasparky]

I'm goanna say no but maybe

 

[hbiss]

No, because the SABCs are exclusively for the countertop appliances- with the exception of the refrigerator receptacle. (And I don't normally even put the refrig on them.

-Hal

 

[david]

No, because the SABCs are exclusively for the countertop appliances- with the exception of the refrigerator receptacle. (And I don't normally even put the refrig on them.

-Hal

I agree the answer would be no, But i do not think the statement about SABC and counter-top receptacles is correct

The kitchen counter tops have to be supplied by the min of two small appliance branch circuits but all the required rec in the kitchen would also be served by two or more small appliance branch circuits

 

[Little Bill]

No to the same circuit for the reasons given.
I generally put the disposal and DW on the same circuit.

 

[ramsy]

Is it okay to supply one kitchen-counter GFCI receptacle and a dishwasher on one circuit, and one other GFCI receptacle and a disposer on one other circuit?

Wouldn't this be okay as long as the hard-wired loads don't exceed 50% of the circuit capacity?

1) Yes, if appliances tapped from separate disposer/DW circuit
2) Yes, if at least 2 SABC's remain dedicated to counter plugs
3) Yes, if replacing old-work plugs only, per 406.4(D)

(The appliances would not be on the GFCI load terminals.)

Since 2014 NEC that dishwasher needs GFCI protected with new wiring or plug
Since 2014 NEC everything in the kitchen also needs AFCI protection

 

[ActionDave]

1) Yes, if appliances tapped from separate disposer/DW circuit

Then that would be a No, because it's a circuit for the dishwasher, not a small appliance branch circuit.

2) Yes, if at least 2 SABC's remain dedicated to counter plugs

Then that would also be a No. Any circuit serving the countertops shall have no other outlets. 210(B) (2) I believe.

Teams of insurance agents and lawyers are gathering to start lawsuits right now.

 

[ramsy]

Teams of insurance agents and lawyers are gathering to start lawsuits right now.

Glad someone is paying attention, even if that part wasn't mentioned.

 

[david]

1) Yes, if appliances tapped from separate disposer/DW circuit
2) Yes, if at least 2 SABC's remain dedicated to counter plugs
3) Yes, if replacing old-work plugs only, per 406.4(D)


Since 2014 NEC that dishwasher needs GFCI protected with new wiring or plug
Since 2014 NEC everything in the kitchen also needs AFCI protection

Small appliance branch circuits are not limited to counter top receptacles. That seems to be a misunderstanding in this thread.

1)
2) Yes, if at least 2 SABC's remain dedicated to counter plugs

It doesn't matter how many SABC's serve just the counter tops , All the small appliance branch circuits are dedicated circuits to all required receptacles in areas requiring SABC's

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Oh heck another NO won't hurt....

 

[ramsy]

Small appliance branch circuits are not limited to counter top receptacles. That seems to be a misunderstanding in this thread..

Here is an interesting code section that may apply to Larry's case.
2017 NEC 210.52(B)(1) Exception No.2

Exception No. 2: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, a receptacle outlet to serve a specific appliance shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

 

[ActionDave]

Here is an interesting code section that may apply to Larry's case.
2017 NEC 210.52(B)(1) Exception No.2

Exception No. 2: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, a receptacle outlet to serve a specific appliance shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.

What does that have to do with powering a dishwasher from the SABC?

 

[ramsy]

What does that have to do with powering a dishwasher from the SABC?

I asked that question first, so please explain why Larry can't use this exception.

 

[LarryFine]

I should have popped back in sooner. This entire thread is because I need to label the panel directory.

My work involves finishing a non-permitted upgrade, 200a MB panel on the old 100a service cable and meter. Probably done in conjunction with a non-permitted HVAC installation.

A lug in the 100a meter base overheated. Imagine that. :roll:

I have done the grounding that was never done, new service cable and meter base, presently jumped from the old one, cable clamps, etc. Inspection is all that remains.

There is a circuit that feeds a receptacle outlet, then down to a dishwasher; same for a second outlet, to a switch and disposer. There are two 20a circuits where three were needed.

Again, I need to label the panel for inspection. The kitchen circuits won't be scrutinized unless I call attention to them. I'm not concerned electrically speaking; it will work as is.

 

[LarryFine]

I asked that question first, so please explain why Larry can't use this exception.

I can; that exception allows an additional receptacle.

I need something that allows me to label a breaker "kitchen receptacle and dishwasher."

 

[ActionDave]

I asked that question first, so please explain why Larry can't use this exception.

You didn't ask any question. You said here's an exception that might apply.

 

[david luchini]

I asked that question first, so please explain why Larry can't use this exception.

Because the exception wouldnt allow him to put the dishwasher on the SABC

 

[packersparky]

I asked that question first, so please explain why Larry can't use this exception.

He can, but that is not the question he asked. He asked if it is compliant to supply the dishwasher off of one of the SABC's and the disposal off of the other SABC. IMO it would not be compliant. 210.52(B)(1) states that the two or more SABC's shall serve all wall, floor, and countertop receptacle outlets in the kitchen. 210.52(B)(2) states that the SABC's shall serve no other outlets than those mentioned in 210.52(B)(1). IMO the receptacles for the dishwasher and disposal are not wall, floor, or countertop outlets.

 

[ramsy]

..210.52(B)(2) states that the SABC's shall serve no other outlets than those mentioned in 210.52(B)(1). IMO the receptacles for the dishwasher and disposal are not wall, floor, or countertop outlets.

Yes I see, 210.52(B) exception #2 is not an SABC exception, nor specific to 210.52(B).

 

[Adamjamma]

Glad someone is paying attention, even if that part wasn't mentioned.

Actually, this is the one part of the code that I personally would like to know how to write up a request for a change... As I feel that with the advent of GFCI and now in 2020 AFCI rules amandating every circuit in the house to have at least one if not both, and with the failure in certain countries or maybe possibly certain places in the USA to have access to breakers at reasonable prices that do the job, and such other factors, we need to get a clarification of the rules to allow an outlet above the counters to not be considered part of the two appliance circuits if it is simply put in place to give an accessible location for the dishwasher, or Fridge, or Freezer or Garbage disposal AFCI or GFCI requirements... Deadfronts may be preferred but until we see DP switch/gfci outlets available, would like another option and labeling a GFCI outlet with Fridge supply, or Dishwasher supply, or Washing machine supply, etc... in permanent marking like we have DP switches in UK and Europe above the counter just makes sense to me.
Now, it may not be considered necessary by many, but I do not consider AFCI to be necessary when most of the concerns about Arc Fault are simply gotten rid of by A) using a properly designed stapler rather than a hammer, and B) using proper torque for all connections...
But, current rules in the USA require AFCI, Europe is slowly joiniing in, with it being Optional right now, but slowly picking up pace... And finally, Jamaica seems to be inching closer to adopting the NEC, though the Wire Colors is currently the biggest hang up..lol
So, who could help me write a code proposal better so we could get an exception to the idea that every outlet above a counter must be part of the small appliance circuits?