Replacing ground rod due to equipment relocation. Removal of old grounding rods?

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roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
I don't see how that could even be possible.

Especially if there was no Code violation to back up those type of actions.


JAP>
In case it's not obvious, the conversation at hand is pretty absurd and many posts have reflected that but, if an inspector required proof of something (not this) he/she can rightfully do so and if the EC or whover refused to accommodate them they can certainly hold up a project or maybe have a meter removed.

Many projects I have been involved with required us to open boxes, carry ladders, open ceiling tiles, provide grounding test reports, etc....

Roger
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
In case it's not obvious, the conversation at hand is pretty absurd and many posts have reflected that but, if an inspector required proof of something (not this) he/she can rightfully do so and if the EC or whover refused to accommodate them they can certainly hold up a project or maybe have a meter removed.

Many projects I have been involved with required us to open boxes, carry ladders, open ceiling tiles, provide grounding test reports, etc....

Roger
I have no problem with opening boxes and such. Should some inspector requesting to dig up 20 feet perimeter of a building for the purpose mentioned... I honestly don't know what my response may be, I'd probably sit there dumbfounded for a few seconds at very least.
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
... Should some inspector requesting to dig up 20 feet perimeter of a building for the purpose mentioned... I honestly don't know what my response may be, I'd probably sit there dumbfounded for a few seconds at very least.

Saying that you need it in writing on the form would likely help.
 

CRS NYS

New User
As an electrical inspector for many years, (now retired) I have been known to pull many a ground rod when I suspect that a rod was cut etc. Since the implementation of the primary and supplemental ground rods became code, I have observed numerous occasions where the EC would cut an 8' rod in half to avoid having to purchase and install two full-sized rods. We even had an inspector walk up on a electrical contractor's employee carrying two 4 foot rods. When questioned, the licensed electrician spoke up indicating we should not be talking to his employee and that the two 4 foot rods were "starters." When questioned about the fact that if they were "starters" wouldn't one rod and where the two 8 foot rods required were, the answer was he was going to purchase them later that day. When you call for an inspection, it needs to be code-compliant at the time of inspection with few exceptions. Needless to say, the inspection failed and required a re-inspect with the customary fee. As an inspector, I have encountered numerous ground rod installations where the installation was suspect. Electricians inexplicably would leave the cut section on site, fail to peen over the cut rod to cover the saw marks and/or leave the shavings adjacent to the modified rod. Amazing what people will do to cover up non-compliant installs. I usually kicked the rod with my boots to determine if it felt like a full sized rod. There is a definitive different feeling when kicking a cut-off rod vs. a full-sized one. As it pertains to the ground rods being abandoned, I believe it is the responsibility of an inspector to utilize a modicum of common sense in these situations. If no conductor was connected to these abandoned rods, they should be disregarded.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Pulling Driven Ground Rods

Pulling Driven Ground Rods

Pulling a rod is very difficult, if not impossible.
I won't deny that it is difficult but I had to remove the 3 section 9 foot long ones that the generator trailers were equipped with when I worked power production in the Air Force. Initially I used 2 of the cable lances and an old wire grip with a block and tackle to do it. (A cable lance is a temporary wire support pole.) In order to avoid loosing 1 or 2 of the 3 screw coupled sections we used a swivel fitting and turned the top section tighter with each pull. Then someone pointed out that we had a breakdown unit, read mechanics truck, with a very heavy duty short crane on it with us so we made nice with the mechanics operating that unit. During umpired field readiness exercises I had to use the provided slide hammer in reverse so that we wouldn't be graded down for misuse of the cable lances or using the block and tackle which was equipment that was not on our Basic Equipment List (BEL). There is a reason that the Navy lads call a Block and Tackle a "Handy Billy" and that no one would ever criticize them for having one along. We got ours by horse trading with a Navy Construction Battalion (CB) unit.

In civilian electrical work I have used the two sections of a 28 foot ladder, separated and lashed together with the vans tow strap, to form an A frame from which I hung a come-along and an old wire grip to pull them out. It works just as well as the wire lances did. If you need to do this with separated ladder section make sure the 2 loops at the tow strap ends will have wrapped around the top of the ladder beam ends before crossing over the rung and hanging down were you will put the come-along hook. I've also used a fence post puller with good effect.

None of that is meant to contradict what LarryFine said. It is never a fun time had by all.
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
As an electrical inspector for many years, (now retired) I have been known to pull many a ground rod when I suspect that a rod was cut etc. ....

Agreed that you dealt with some shady (and stupid!) stuff. But what did you do when you pulled a rod that was correct? Put it back in for them?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Agreed that you dealt with some shady (and stupid!) stuff. But what did you do when you pulled a rod that was correct? Put it back in for them?
+1

If an inspector undoes anything and then finds nothing was wrong, he had better plan to repair/replace what he undone on any project of mine.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Pulling a rod is very difficult, if not impossible.
I've pulled several I never intended to pull with the backhoe.

Couple times used a "hi-lift" jack to pull a rod when other machinery wasn't available. Other jack styles would work but have short travel range and need to be "reset" more frequently during the process.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
:cool:
Just as an aside has anyone seen a 10' ground rod that was 5/8"? The only ones that I've ever seen that are 10' long are 3/4".
Yes I have. But that was when I was in the Air Force and doing grounding for each transmitter of a McCullough loop Fire Alarm street box system. I had finished only the housing portion of the base in rocky New York soil and had driven dozens of them with some stacked 4 deep to get each transmitter to successfully transmit via ground return. I was dammed glad that the truck I was provided with had a hydraulic drilling motor and I had been provided with drill bits for the rods. As I had been on the detail for weeks at that point I started reading the manuals for the system. The wording "The resistance of the central station grounding is critical to the performance of the system during a break in one of the alarm receiving loops" leapt out at me. Come the next day I asked the senior NCO to show me how the ground resistance tester worked so I could confirm the resistance to ground at each box prior to driving additional rods. He asked me to put it on the schedule and I asked if I set the meter up using the central station grounding as the tested ground would he take a quick look at it to see if I had done it correctly. He did and the measurement we got surprised him a lot! The central station grounding was dammed near non existent. I showed him the diagram of the central station grounding which was laid out in the manufacturers manual and he authorized me to build it. Engineers were called in to check the work prior to back fill and when they saw the remnants of the previous system they researched what might have happened to it. They took soil samples and the answer became clear. The residues from spilled aircraft fuel had turned into a fairly potent acid when the rain mixed with them and the system had dissolved in the resultant underground acid bath. Part of that happening was that the system had originally been built during World War 2 and consisted entirely of steel because copper was simply unavailable for that use. The engineers had a drain installed at the edge of the concrete which made up the flight line so that no fuel would ever escape the pad again. They had me do all of the back filling except the last foot with some sort of conductive soil. It came in 100 pound bags and it took me days to pour it into the trench that went clear around the building. I later learned, while training to be an electrician, that the manufacturers diagram showed a Ground Ring with 2 stacked driven rods every 20 feet. I even found the old attachment points for the reinforcing steel in the floor and since it was in that diagram I took a wire brush on a drill to them and tied them in as well. Funny thing was the diagram diagram didn't call for Cad Welding. All of the connections were made with buriable mechanical connections. Upshot was that not one additional street box transmitter needed additional grounding to successfully transmit via Ground Return. The Sgt said thanks for the work and sent me back to my detail in power production shop with a very nice evaluation.

--
Tom Horne
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
No paragraphs.

Allow me:

Yes I have. But that was when I was in the Air Force and doing grounding for each transmitter of a McCullough loop Fire Alarm street box system. I had finished only the housing portion of the base in rocky New York soil and had driven dozens of them with some stacked 4 deep to get each transmitter to successfully transmit via ground return. I was dammed glad that the truck I was provided with had a hydraulic drilling motor and I had been provided with drill bits for the rods.

As I had been on the detail for weeks at that point I started reading the manuals for the system. The wording "The resistance of the central station grounding is critical to the performance of the system during a break in one of the alarm receiving loops" leapt out at me. Come the next day I asked the senior NCO to show me how the ground resistance tester worked so I could confirm the resistance to ground at each box prior to driving additional rods.

He asked me to put it on the schedule and I asked if I set the meter up using the central station grounding as the tested ground would he take a quick look at it to see if I had done it correctly. He did and the measurement we got surprised him a lot! The central station grounding was dammed near non existent. I showed him the diagram of the central station grounding which was laid out in the manufacturers manual and he authorized me to build it.

Engineers were called in to check the work prior to back fill and when they saw the remnants of the previous system they researched what might have happened to it. They took soil samples and the answer became clear. The residues from spilled aircraft fuel had turned into a fairly potent acid when the rain mixed with them and the system had dissolved in the resultant underground acid bath.

Part of that happening was that the system had originally been built during World War 2 and consisted entirely of steel because copper was simply unavailable for that use. The engineers had a drain installed at the edge of the concrete which made up the flight line so that no fuel would ever escape the pad again. They had me do all of the back filling except the last foot with some sort of conductive soil.

It came in 100 pound bags and it took me days to pour it into the trench that went clear around the building. I later learned, while training to be an electrician, that the manufacturers diagram showed a Ground Ring with 2 stacked driven rods every 20 feet. I even found the old attachment points for the reinforcing steel in the floor and since it was in that diagram I took a wire brush on a drill to them and tied them in as well.

Funny thing was the diagram diagram didn't call for Cad Welding. All of the connections were made with buriable mechanical connections. Upshot was that not one additional street box transmitter needed additional grounding to successfully transmit via Ground Return. The Sgt said thanks for the work and sent me back to my detail in power production shop with a very nice evaluation.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
when adding carriage returns becomes an act of mercy.

The reply function on this forum sometimes adds extra blank lines and then when I try to edit out the extras it sometimes edits out the first one as well. Can anyone direct me to tips on using the reply function more effectively?

--
Tom Horne
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
The reply function on this forum sometimes adds extra blank lines and then when I try to edit out the extras it sometimes edits out the first one as well. Can anyone direct me to tips on using the reply function more effectively?

--
Tom Horne

Don't hit the Return/Enter button until you want a double space.

Don't format your post based on what you see in the reply box.

Use the Preview button to see how your post will appear before you hit Post Reply.
 
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