Feeder into building

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hhsting

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Glen bunie, md, us
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Attached sketch shows 120/028V, three phase, 1600A main service building disconnect located on the outside wall of the building. Load side of the service disconnect I have 2 sets of 250kcmil AL conductors routed 160 feet inside the building to 200A fused disconnect labeled Disco #2 which then feeds tenant Panel A. Also Disco #2 has GEC going to common ground.

There are three more additional feeders from main service disco that feed Disco #1, Disco #3, Disco #4 all grounded (not shown)

All this is in commericial multi tenant building.


The questions are following:

1. Does attach sketch comply with 240.21(B)? If yes or no then which rule 10 feet, 25 feet or outside?

2. Does attach sketch bring Article 225 into question outside feeders to building?

3. Not sure why Disco #2 is grounded. Which code says to do that?

4. Is their a need for disconnect to be located right at the point of entry of entrance of feeders coming into building? If yes then which code section.
16928e383c20e8c95705d18fc2b46f8a.jpg


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hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
Are those conductors considered outside the building per 230.6?
You have main service disconnect and load side of the main service disconnect you have the feeders going in the building. How are they outside and how are they service conductors?

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hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
Right it is a feeder, but see 230.6. I believe other articles for non service conductors reference back to 230.6
Ok i see. However, the 160 feet in length feeders are mounted on underside of the 2nd floor slab so how they would qualify as 230.6(1) or (2)?
Also what about the GEC at the disconnect?

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Ok i see. However, the 160 feet in length feeders are mounted on underside of the 2nd floor slab so how they would qualify as 230.6(1) or (2)?
Also what about the GEC at the disconnect?

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I wasn't saying they did qualify for the outside unlimited tap rule, was just asking. It appears they do not, and if I am interpreting everything correctly, then it is not compliant.
 

hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
Confusing parts of sketch post #1 is Disco #2 grounding may be indicating this is considered as outside feeders feeding in building. However, there are 4 feeders going into building so those 4 feeders are not in compliance with 225.30.

If you considered feeder taps 10 and 25 feet then it is not in compliance with 240.24(B) 10 ft and 25ft rules.

Overall its confusing install not sure how to bring it upto code.

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Confusing parts of sketch is Disco #2 grounding may be indicating this is considered as outside feeders feeding in building. However, there are 4 feeders going into building so those 4 feeders are not in compliance with 225.30.

If you considered feeder taps 10 and 25 feet then it is not in compliance with 240.24(B) 10 ft and 25ft rules.

Overall its confusing install

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It's not a 225.30 violation since the service disconnect is on the building. You can come out with as many feeder as you want, but they need over current protection or have to comply with a tap rule
 

hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
It's not a 225.30 violation since the service disconnect is on the building. You can come out with as many feeder as you want, but they need over current protection or have to comply with a tap rule
Service disconnect is on the building but not considered outside so tap rule would be either 10ft or 25ft but not outside tap rule since service disconnect is on the building.

So if there are no outside feeders then what is GEC doing at Disco #2? I dont see how thats per code.

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hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
Conductors can be considered outside, but not actually be outside. See 240.21(B)(5) and 230.6 if you haven't read those thoroughly.
I think i understand what you mean. 230.6 allows conductors to be inside but methods followed 230.6 can be considered as conductors to be outside. Ofcourse then those are outside conductors by code.

So my questions are:
1. If you use 240.21(B)(5) your conductors are outside by code then you would also have to use 225.30 which does not allow multiple outside feeders into building. I have four feeders into bldg. No? If not then i dont follow.

2. I have GEC and GES at Disoc #1, Disco #2, Disco #3 and Disco #4. How is that per code?



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Last edited:
I think i understand what you mean. 230.6 allows conductors to be inside but methods followed 230.6 can be considered as conductors to be outside. Ofcourse then those are outside conductors by code.

So my questions are:
1. If you use 240.21(B)(5) your conductors are outside by code then you would also have to use 225.30 which does not allow multiple outside feeders into building. I have four feeders into bldg. No? If not then i dont follow.

2. I have GEC and GES at Disoc #1, Disco #2, Disco #3 and Disco #4. How is that per code?



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The intent of 230.6 is to provide enough protection for conductors so that their lack of over current protection will not endanger the building if they burn up. Just because they are "outside conductors" for that purpose, doesn't make them a multiple supply to a building violation.
 

hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
The intent of 230.6 is to provide enough protection for conductors so that their lack of over current protection will not endanger the building if they burn up. Just because they are "outside conductors" for that purpose, doesn't make them a multiple supply to a building violation.
What if one goes with 240.21(B)(5)(4)(a) or 240.21(B)(5)(4)(b) none of them reference back to 230.6?

Can you have multiple outside feeder taps feeder going into building?

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hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
What if one goes with 240.21(B)(5)(4)(a) or 240.21(B)(5)(4)(b) none of them reference back to 230.6?

Can you have multiple sets of outside feeder taps feeders going into building?
 

hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
Right it is a feeder, but see 230.6. I believe other articles for non service conductors reference back to 230.6
Do you mind sharing which articles for non service conductors reference back to 230.6? I only found one 240.21(B)(5)(c).

Thanks

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hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
Attached sketch shows 120/028V, three phase, 1600A main service building disconnect located on the outside wall of the building. Load side of the service disconnect I have 2 sets of 250kcmil AL conductors routed 160 feet inside the building to 200A fused disconnect labeled Disco #2 which then feeds tenant Panel A. Also Disco #2 has GEC going to common ground.

There are three more additional feeders from main service disco that feed Disco #1, Disco #3, Disco #4 all grounded (not shown)

All this is in commericial multi tenant building.


The questions are following:

1. Does attach sketch comply with 240.21(B)? If yes or no then which rule 10 feet, 25 feet or outside?

2. Does attach sketch bring Article 225 into question outside feeders to building?

3. Not sure why Disco #2 is grounded. Which code says to do that?

4. Is their a need for disconnect to be located right at the point of entry of entrance of feeders coming into building? If yes then which code section.
16928e383c20e8c95705d18fc2b46f8a.jpg


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Post #1 can anyone share their input? I did appreciate your input.

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What if one goes with 240.21(B)(5)(4)(a) or 240.21(B)(5)(4)(b) none of them reference back to 230.6?

Can you have multiple sets of outside feeder taps feeders going into building?

(B)(5)(4)(c) is for the situation where the tap conductors are inside the building but considered "outside". These conductors would originate from the same building. (a) and (b) Would be when the conductors originate in a different building or structure.
 

hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
What if the four disconnects in post #1 sketch are relocated as shown on attached sketch this post right where conductors enter the building. However distance from 1600A main breaker to three of the disconnects would be 20 feet and fourth disconnect Disco #1 furthest in sketch would be 28 feet since the tapped conductors run up outside wall into building then drop directly down to the disconnects/meters.

The question is some sort of tap tule would still apply. Would outside conductors tap rule apply or would 10 feet or 25 feet tap rule apply?

Thanks for your input
4a0eacbd0883af47a6a8c9bd0e7d682c.jpg
 
Last edited:

hhsting

Senior Member
Location
Glen bunie, md, us
Occupation
Junior plan reviewer
What if the four disconnects in post #1 sketch are relocated as shown on attached sketch post #19 right where conductors enter the building. However distance from 1600A main breaker to three of the disconnects would be 20 feet and fourth disconnect Disco #1 furthest in sketch would be 28 feet since the tapped conductors run up outside wall into building then drop directly down to the disconnects/meters.

The question is some sort of tap tule would still apply. Would outside conductors tap rule apply or would 10 feet or 25 feet tap rule apply?

Thanks for your input
4a0eacbd0883af47a6a8c9bd0e7d682c.jpg

Post #19 can anyone share their input? I did appreciate your input.

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