AFCI requirements VS new appliances

[mwm1752]

The issues many have with AFCI protection is due to arcing caused by new appliances (Miicrowaves, refrigerators, ect). Most all articles associated with AFCI explain the protection is for the branch circuit wiring that may have damage due to damaged installation or maybe rodent damage. Some mention pinched cords that weaken over time.
So, is AFCI supposed to be protection from listed & labeled new appliances that cause fault through operation?
If so what is the solution other that telling manufacture there product though is listed & labeled is not able to be use due to NEC regulations?

this is happening to a brand of microwave installed throughout an employee housing complex

 

[kwired]

I hate to ask but did you just crawl out from under a rock?

Manufacturers were asked maybe 25-30 years ago to come up with something to protect from arcing faults.

When they finally came up with something that was somewhat close to doing that they pushed hard to get it into code even though it still had problems, this so they can begin to profit from their efforts.

All the problems left behind, yes they maybe have fixed a few of them, but they left the consumer as part of their testing lab, and the contractor as the guinea pig to do all the dirty work, much of it at his own expense.

 

[MAC702]

You should give us the specifics. What brand and model of microwave? What brand and type of AFCI protection? What frequency is the occurrence?

 

[mwm1752]

I hate to ask but did you just crawl out from under a rock?

Manufacturers were asked maybe 25-30 years ago to come up with something to protect from arcing faults.

When they finally came up with something that was somewhat close to doing that they pushed hard to get it into code even though it still had problems, this so they can begin to profit from their efforts.

All the problems left behind, yes they maybe have fixed a few of them, but they left the consumer as part of their testing lab, and the contractor as the guinea pig to do all the dirty work, much of it at his own expense.

Kwire - don't be such an a-s -- 45 years in the trade as worker - contractor- inspector now dealing with the elephant in the room - NEC is not a bible & NFPA should be more responsible to reality & not lobbyist. This site is supposed to be for information not arrogance.

 

[mwm1752]

You should give us the specifics. What brand and model of microwave? What brand and type of AFCI protection? What frequency is the occurrence?

GE is the microwave @ 700 watts - breakers not sure if it is the 50/60 cycle or 60 cycle markings. Sad part is that NEC says keep protection cause it is in a kitchen.

 

[hbiss]

... 45 years in the trade as worker - contractor- inspector now dealing with the elephant in the room - NEC is not a bible & NFPA should be more responsible to reality & not lobbyist. This site is supposed to be for information not arrogance.

Ok, so you do understand the AFCI debacle. Sorry about the arrogance but we are as p***** off as you are over it.

NEC is not a bible & NFPA should be more responsible to reality & not lobbyist

I agree 100%. I've said before that I would like to see some other organizations that have not been compromised by manufacturers write Code books. There should be alternatives to the NEC.

-Hal

 

[K8MHZ]

Ok, so you do understand the AFCI debacle. Sorry about the arrogance but we are as p***** off as you are over it.



I agree 100%. I've said before that I would like to see some other organizations that have not been compromised by manufacturers write Code books. There should be alternatives to the NEC.

-Hal

Like the Michigan Electrical Code?

 

[K8MHZ]

GE is the microwave @ 700 watts - breakers not sure if it is the 50/60 cycle or 60 cycle markings. Sad part is that NEC says keep protection cause it is in a kitchen.

I will bet it's much cheaper to change the microwaves than do anything to the electrical system. You may even be able to get GE to refund some of your money.

 

[al hildenbrand]

You should give us the specifics. What brand and model of microwave? What brand and type of AFCI protection? What frequency is the occurrence?

GE is the microwave @ 700 watts - breakers not sure if it is the 50/60 cycle or 60 cycle markings. Sad part is that NEC says keep protection cause it is in a kitchen.

"frequency" meant: how often does any one microwave trip its AFCI? Do you have a guess or estimate?

And, about the "AFCI", who manufactures it? Is it a dual function Arc Fault / Ground Fault CI or just a combination-type. How old do you estimate the breakers are? ( A couple weeks, or a couple years . . . ?) Understand, there are now at least five DIFFERENT behaviors that the various types of AFCIs exhibit, so, for those of us on the other side of your screen, that can't see what you are thinking off, we have to ask for names in order to answer with cogent information.

 

[bkludecke]

Out here on the left coast (So Cal) our company has put in many hundreds of AFCI circuits/circuit breakers since the requirements were first introduced in the NEC in the 1999 edition. We are a full code cycle behind out here (currently on the 2014 edition) so we had the benefit of learning some things about them before the requirements took hold here. There was a very short learning curve on the first few projects we used them on and we rarely experience problems these days. I don't know whether the AFCI technology is effective or worthwhile but I do know that we have very little heartburn over the requirements as far as callbacks are concerned. The biggest adjustments have been how we needed to rethink how we laid out the circuitry on home wiring as the requirements evolved.

I have been in the trade long enough to remember similar issues and complaints with GFCI requirements, especially when they were first required in dwelling unit garages where the old freezer was, or with sump pumps. Where we are about 70% of the homes are part time residences that may get occupied on the weekends, etc. If the refrigerator or freezer is on a GFCI/AFCI protected outlet or circuit and it trips, and nobody is around to notice for several weeks.............. So frozen fish, when left to thaw for a few weeks can turn a freezer into a pretty nasty place. Warm beer is a non-starter as well for some folks.

 

[kwired]

Kwire - don't be such an a-s -- 45 years in the trade as worker - contractor- inspector now dealing with the elephant in the room - NEC is not a bible & NFPA should be more responsible to reality & not lobbyist. This site is supposed to be for information not arrogance.

Well AFAIK you are an inspector, I think you know what you are supposed to enforce (whether you agree with what is written or not).

You likely also know it may be a PITA for the contractor and/or appliance vendor, but there is nothing written that allows anything different, other option may be different brand or updated version of what is currently in use, different brand of course leads to other things needing changed because those others are not going to be listed for use in what is existing.

 

[mwm1752]

Well AFAIK you are an inspector, I think you know what you are supposed to enforce (whether you agree with what is written or not).

You likely also know it may be a PITA for the contractor and/or appliance vendor, but there is nothing written that allows anything different, other option may be different brand or updated version of what is currently in use, different brand of course leads to other things needing changed because those others are not going to be listed for use in what is existing.

You sound like a true soldier following orders over any cliff without reserve. read my post then opine - to question an almighty code decision looking for clarity in sensibility does not make one uneducated or rebellious. I live in the real world trying to cope with real situations that effect the average person.

 

[mwm1752]

"frequency" meant: how often does any one microwave trip its AFCI? Do you have a guess or estimate?

And, about the "AFCI", who manufactures it? Is it a dual function Arc Fault / Ground Fault CI or just a combination-type. How old do you estimate the breakers are? ( A couple weeks, or a couple years . . . ?) Understand, there are now at least five DIFFERENT behaviors that the various types of AFCIs exhibit, so, for those of us on the other side of your screen, that can't see what you are thinking off, we have to ask for names in order to answer with cogent information.

breakers trip regularly in this multifamily structure some more than others,everything associated in this post is brand new. & I stated the cycles because many manufactures have them marked as such - I have observed for many years the 50/60 cycle style breaker trips more readily than the 60 cycle type. the best fix so far has been using the dual function receptacle place in a readily accessible location.

 

[kwired]

You sound like a true soldier following orders over any cliff without reserve. read my post then opine - to question an almighty code decision looking for clarity in sensibility does not make one uneducated or rebellious. I live in the real world trying to cope with real situations that effect the average person.

Inspectors are supposed have no choice but to inspect to code even if they don't agree with it.

Installer has a little more choice, with those choices comes potential increases in liability, still should have no choice if an inspector is supposed to look at it.

AFCI - the installer is the middle man that can't do anything correctly and is pulled two ways, one by code and opposite direction by customer, and is often eating cost trying to make both inspector and customer happy when these things don't play well with connected loads. I have no solution, just stating what happens and why installers dislike them. Nothing wrong with trying to prevent fires, but don't do it at installer's expense when manufacturer hasn't perfected the solution yet.

 

[hbiss]

Or proven that they actually do prevent fires.

-Hal

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is no possible solution to this ...it is impossible for the AFCI manufacture to know the normal operating siginature of every appliance that has bee made or will be made. The arc recognition software in the AFCIs is proprietary and that makes it impossible for an appliance manufacture to design their appliances so that wont trip the AFCI. Most of the time, there is no arc or real problem in the appliance, it is just that the AFCI see the normal operating signature as an arcing fault.

 

[electrofelon]

Or proven that they actually do prevent fires.

-Hal

And EVEN IF it becomes clear that they work as advertised, the way they were introduced into the code gradually and illogically before they were ready with the public as the testing lab is unconscionable and some people need to go to jail IMO.

 

[mwm1752]

I take no joy in enforcing impossible situations -- As you state -- Inspectors have no choice. But finding viable interpretations through discussion is a tool an inspector can utilize. We are now going to be forced to gfi receptacle protection - without amperage limitations and update to 240V in the comming NEC cycle. See my fixed barrier thread as my jurisdiction may define fixed barrier as being a object that cannot be readily passed by a cord to access a receptacle.

 

[kwired]

Fixed barrier can create longer path say in situation where there is 6 foot limitation or can effectively create a separate room or other space in some situations but I don't see it as something that can eliminate the need for a GFCI in all cases. Take a fixed barrier in a garage - your receptacle is still likely to be considered in a garage unless your barrier actually creates a separate room.

 

[tortuga]

Whats the make and model of the microwave? Did i miss that?

To be sure its the AFCI and not the microwave or the wiring
I would fist disconnect all the end devices, the use an insulation tester, and run the same test done on manufactured homes and RV's (its in the NEC I believe).
That finds pinched wires, wet wires, screws and tight staples.
Then I replace the AFCI with a GFCI or even better a (Class B) 30ma GFCI breaker.
Here is one made by Siemens:
https://support.industry.siemens.co...0ka?pid=899828&mlfb=US2:QE115&mfn=ps&lc=en-US

If your 'Class B' GFCI trips you actually have faulty microwave problem.
If the problem goes away try a adding a AFCI receptacle so just the microwave is AFCI protected.
Post the results back here.

I also have used a data logger to log the equipment ground, hot and neutral for a few days.