Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Utility disconnect not service disconnect

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Originally posted by hhsting View Post
    Yup verified it twice its Square D 1000A, 240V, 3P, NF, Nema 3R utility disconnect switch. It is ahead of Utility CT Cabinet and meter.
    just to be clear, who is calling it a utility disconnect switch? Does the utility require one in their construction specifications? In my experience, kinda odd to have one for a CT service.

    The system is 208/120V three phase. Downstream service.disconnect is 65kAIC rated so utility disconnect has to be rated at least 65kAIC.
    Well maybe. The utility disconnect switch has to be rated for the available fault current, not necessarily equal to or greater than that of the service disconnect

    Even if I talk to utility designer which I dont know who he/she is they would say what does AHJ have control over utility disconnect.
    IF it is on the utility side of the service point, then yes the AHJ has no say over what they do and its not your problem if they can/want to under rate it. IF it is on the customer side of the service point, then it needs to meet the NEC even if it is a utility requirement. There is a difference between something being on the supply side of the service point and something being "for" or "required" by the utility.
    Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

    "You can't generalize"

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
      just to be clear, who is calling it a utility disconnect switch? Does the utility require one in their construction specifications? In my experience, kinda odd to have one for a CT service.



      Well maybe. The utility disconnect switch has to be rated for the available fault current, not necessarily equal to or greater than that of the service disconnect



      IF it is on the utility side of the service point, then yes the AHJ has no say over what they do and its not your problem if they can/want to under rate it. IF it is on the customer side of the service point, then it needs to meet the NEC even if it is a utility requirement. There is a difference between something being on the supply side of the service point and something being "for" or "required" by the utility.
      The engineer is calling it utility disconnect and says utility is requiring it.

      Not sure where the service point is utility transformer is new and so is everything else.

      Service disconnect overcurrent has to be rated greater than or equal to avaliable fault current and so since utility disco which is outside and service disco which is inside back to back so not far fault current wont change that much.

      Code section meter disconnect allows it.
      Not following regarding 10kA arguement. Are all of you saying if fault current is greater than 10kA then their is no utility disconnect. What exactly happens if fault current is greater than 10kA and utility disconnect is provided greater than or equal to fault current without fuse?

      Comment


        #18
        Where in NEC it says service point downstream is NEC and upstream it is utility?

        Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by hhsting View Post
          Not following regarding 10kA arguement. Are all of you saying if fault current is greater than 10kA then their is no utility disconnect. What exactly happens if fault current is greater than 10kA and utility disconnect is provided greater than or equal to fault current without fuse?
          NF disconnects are only rated 10k. IF you have more than 10k, you need to used a fused disco. Nothing says the "meter disconnect" cant be fused.
          Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

          "You can't generalize"

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
            NF disconnects are only rated 10k. IF you have more than 10k, you need to used a fused disco. Nothing says the "meter disconnect" cant be fused.
            I'll let the engineer know and to coordinate and have utility worst case fault current at the utility disconnect and to provide in writing. I will also have in writing service point. His arguement I suspect would be AHJ has no control of utility disconnect however if its downstream of service point then AHJ has control over it. Just cant find it in code section???

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by hhsting View Post
              I'll let the engineer know and to coordinate and have utility worst case fault current at the utility disconnect and to provide in writing. I will also have in writing service point. His arguement I suspect would be AHJ has no control of utility disconnect however if its downstream of service point then AHJ has control over it. Just cant find it in code section???
              See article 100 definition of service point, and also see 90.2(A)(1) and (B)(5)
              Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

              "You can't generalize"

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
                See article 100 definition of service point, and also see 90.2(A)(1) and (B)(5)
                His second arguement I suspect would be utility disconnect is to be owned and operated by the utility not by customer why should AHJ care? 90.2(B)(5)(b) says property owned for distribution of energy i.e. utility disconnect.
                Last edited by hhsting; 07-21-19, 01:00 PM.

                Comment


                  #23
                  [QUOTE=hhsting;2009428]His second arguement I suspect would be utility disconnect is to be owned and operated by the utility not by customer why should AHJ care? 90.2(B)(5)(b) says
                  property owned for distribution of energy [/color] i.e. utility disconnect.
                  You are not reading that section carefully. (B)(5)(b) is talking about real estate type property. I guarantee the POCO doesn't own the property where that meter disconnect is.
                  Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                  "You can't generalize"

                  Comment


                    #24
                    [QUOTE=electrofelon;2009432]
                    Originally posted by hhsting View Post
                    His second arguement I suspect would be utility disconnect is to be owned and operated by the utility not by customer why should AHJ care? 90.2(B)(5)(b) says

                    You are not reading that section carefully. (B)(5)(b) is talking about real estate type property. I guarantee the POCO doesn't own the property where that meter disconnect is.
                    real estate property is not owned by POCO but disconnect equipment is porperty of POCO owned and operated by POCO. That section also talks about metering but thats not real estate either but property of POCO. Engineer would argue that utility disconnect is property of POCO owned by POCO. 90.5(B)(5) does not say real estate property specifically it just says property.
                    Last edited by hhsting; 07-21-19, 01:32 PM.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      here is the section:

                      (B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following:
                      (1) Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings,
                      railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles
                      other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles
                      Informational Note: Although the scope of this Code indicates
                      that the Code does not cover installations in ships,
                      portions of this Code are incorporated by reference into
                      Title 46, Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 110–113.
                      (2) Installations underground in mines and self-propelled
                      mobile surface mining machinery and its attendant
                      electrical trailing cable
                      (3) Installations of railways for generation, transformation,
                      transmission, or distribution of power used exclusively
                      for operation of rolling stock or installations used exclusively
                      for signaling and communications purposes
                      (4) Installations of communications equipment under the
                      exclusive control of communications utilities located
                      outdoors or in building spaces used exclusively for
                      such installations
                      (5) Installations under the exclusive control of an electric
                      utility
                      where such installations
                      a. Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated
                      metering, or
                      b. Are on property owned or leased by the electric
                      utility for the purpose of communications, metering,
                      generation, control, transformation, transmission, or
                      distribution of electric energy, or......
                      Take out 5(a) and read right through 5 to 5(B). Seems pretty clear to me they are NOT referring to, say, a cabinet that is owned by the utility. Even if they were, did the utility supply the NF disco? Usually not, so how is it suddenly their property?)

                      But back up and look at the part of (5) I colored red. Is it really under the utility's "exclusive control"? Did you supply the equipment, install the equipment, and are you responsible (at least partly) for the equipment? The answer is almost always yes. Say a termination fails inside a meter socket or the meter disconnect, do you think the utility will come and fix it?
                      Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                      "You can't generalize"

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
                        here is the section:



                        Take out 5(a) and read right through 5 to 5(B). Seems pretty clear to me they are NOT referring to, say, a cabinet that is owned by the utility. Even if they were, did the utility supply the NF disco? Usually not, so how is it suddenly their property?)

                        But back up and look at the part of (5) I colored red. Is it really under the utility's "exclusive control"? Did you supply the equipment, install the equipment, and are you responsible (at least partly) for the equipment? The answer is almost always yes. Say a termination fails inside a meter socket or the meter disconnect, do you think the utility will come and fix it?
                        It says nothing about ownership, it says "under the exclusive control of..". Does not matter who actually purchased the item, but rather who has control of it.

                        Pretty common for POCO's in many places to specify how you will install service conductors, meters, raceways, point of attachment, etc. and make customer and/or customer's contractor install most if not all of it and they only make final connections and plug a meter in. They still consider up to the meter or even up to the service disconnecting means to be on supply side of the "service point" because to do any maintenance here typically means getting POCO involved in some way or another. Most POCO around here that have such specifications on services usually have specs that are also code compliant, and even have some things that exceed code requirements. Underground service raceways that NEC says can be 18" deep - POCO's here often want 36".
                        I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by kwired View Post
                          It says nothing about ownership, it says "under the exclusive control of..". Does not matter who actually purchased the item, but rather who has control of it.

                          Pretty common for POCO's in many places to specify how you will install service conductors, meters, raceways, point of attachment, etc. and make customer and/or customer's contractor install most if not all of it and they only make final connections and plug a meter in. They still consider up to the meter or even up to the service disconnecting means to be on supply side of the "service point" because to do any maintenance here typically means getting POCO involved in some way or another. Most POCO around here that have such specifications on services usually have specs that are also code compliant, and even have some things that exceed code requirements. Underground service raceways that NEC says can be 18" deep - POCO's here often want 36".
                          Yes well the non fuse utility disconnect after contractor install it would be under control of POCO. POCO is going to have their locks at the utility disconnect.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by kwired View Post
                            It says nothing about ownership, it says "under the exclusive control of..". Does not matter who actually purchased the item, but rather who has control of it.
                            Yes but I was referring to the language in 90.2(B)(5)(b) where it says "property" OP was claiming that property could be equipment.

                            Around here one of the POCO's provides the CT cabinet. That makes it their property, but we still make the line and load terminations, and I assume are responsible for the line and load conductors and terminations, thus it is not under their " exclusive control". Another POCO doesnt supply the CT cabinet, and they give me the CT's and make me install them. They do wire the secondary of the CT's to their meter however.
                            Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                            "You can't generalize"

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by hhsting View Post
                              Yes well the non fuse utility disconnect after contractor install it would be under control of POCO. POCO is going to have their locks at the utility disconnect.
                              The last one I did, the POCO did not lock it. Even if they did, Ill bet you 10 bucks if a termination fails in there, or some other part of it has an issue, they will not fix it. IMO that is not "exclusive control"
                              Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

                              "You can't generalize"

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by electrofelon View Post
                                The last one I did, the POCO did not lock it. Even if they did, Ill bet you 10 bucks if a termination fails in there, or some other part of it has an issue, they will not fix it. IMO that is not "exclusive control"
                                You win, it’s not exclusive control, at your house.
                                Tom
                                TBLO

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X