3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

[hurk27]

I have this preference to the way these switches end up. Now this is my own belief but when I leave a house I want to see when all the switches in a circuit are down the light or outlet is off. The thing I'm getting at is we have a code for single and double pole switches and they even indicate whether or not there on or off but with 3-ways and 4-ways there is no indications unless we install them so that when all the switches are down the light/outlet will have no power on it. what started this is we had a home owner that was changing a bulb and when he was putting the new bulb in he stuck his finger in the socket, and he thought that it was code for it to be like this but I showed him that it wasn't he couldn't believe it. and this wasn't the first time this had happened as I found out that there is quit a few that believe that if all the switches are down there should be no power on the fixture.
Of course I told him that is why he should turn off the breaker, but we need to be realistic as we all know that that just don't happen. home owners will even change fixtures with the breakers on much less turn it off for changing a bulb. to me it would seem that since it is code to have a single or double pole to be down when it is in the off position would it be a good code to do this with 3-way's and 4-way's? (when all switches are down power off to the light/outlet)

Just thought I'd get someone's else's opinion

 

[david]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Hurk,
It?s late so I?ll guess bite. First your kidding right? I say this because there is know way that I know of that will accomplish this for 3-way and 4-way switches. If your not kidding I would hope you would clue me in as to how this could be accomplished.

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Indicating switches are required when the switch is used as a service disconnect IE: a/h/u,disposal
etc.When used as a lighting control there is nothing that requires switches to be of the indicating type.

 

[hbiss]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

No switches have the travelers marked to indicate which way they connect according to the handle position. Unless you use the same switches all the time and have previously figured out the traveler connections you are going to waste alot of time. Don't think I've ever seen this done, matter of fact it is common practice to make sure they alternate.

As for someone who never noticed that the light was on with the switches down and who stuck his finger into the socket while changing a light bulb, well, they deserve some "shock therapy"! Just remind them that that's why we get the "big money" and to be more careful next time.

[ October 23, 2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: hbiss ]

 

[pierre]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Hurk
The thought is noble , the topic is useless .

Anybody who takes on the responsibility of doing something him/herself also take on the liability. Either you know how to do it or you don't.

Pierre

 

[steve66]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Tell the Homeowner:

"Next time you change a bulb, DON'T STICK YOUR FINGER IN THE SOCKET!!"
Steve

 

[vanwalker]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

most times you are instruced to turn the circuit off not just the switch. GEO

 

[charlie b]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

I might be willing wager a six pack that a group like this could quickly come up with a list of at least one hundred things that we would not want to have prescribed to us by the code. The simple reasons are (1) That safety is not impacted by the issue, (2) That the designers and installers among us wouldn?t want to have a job pass or fail inspection for so trivial a detail, and (3) That the inspectors among us wouldn?t want to be compelled to pay attention to so trivial a detail. I would put this issue as number two on my list. I won?t mention my number one item ? that dead horse has been flogged enough in this forum.

 

[steve66]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Do you mount recepticles with the ground up or down?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I wouldn't blame you if you revoked my log-in for that.

Steve

 

[Guest]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Ouch!

I'm guessing that the light bulb broke off at the base.

Next thing you know we'll be putting GFCI protection on 3-ways and 4-ways to protect the end user while they retrieve the stub of a broken bulb on a 3-way/4-way

 

[ryan_618]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Wayne, does a GFCI prevent people from getting shocked?

 

[Guest]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

No. I see your point. I was thinking of the safety part of keeping them alive. The HO in this case obviously lived to complain

A GFCI would be an automatic circuit breaker. The HO takes a hit. It smarts a bit. The breaker trips. The HO lives to complain. Maybe GFCI is not such a bright idea

../Wayne C.

[ October 23, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[electricman2]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Remember, if 3-way switches are wired so that the light is off when the handles are down, it will also be off when both handles are up.

 

[roger]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Steve, you're good.

"Next time you change a bulb, DON'T STICK YOUR FINGER IN THE SOCKET!!"

and then you blew it,

Do you mount recepticles with the ground up or down?

I don't think

I wouldn't blame you if you revoked my log-in for that.

is any where near severe enough.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Originally posted by david:
First your kidding right? I say this because there is know way that I know of that will accomplish this for 3-way and 4-way switches.

David this is easily accomplished no mater how many switches are installed on the circuit.

If when you have wired them that all switches down equal off, that will never change.

The key here is all switches down on that switch loop.

Unless someone pulls a switch out and turns it over it will not change.

That said I do not want to see a code rule on this, what a PITA to accomplish in large buildings.

 

[goldstar]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

David this is easily accomplished no mater how many switches are installed on the circuit.

If when you have wired them that all switches down equal off, that will never change.

The key here is all switches down on that switch loop.

Bob, I don't want to jump the gun and say that you are totally incorrect with respect to this. If your scenario only involves (2) 3-ways then it is is also possible for the light to be off with both switches up (as electricman2 pointed out) which will further confuse that person who stuck his/her finger into the socket in an effort to test for the presence of electricity. If you have a situation (say an entrance foyer in a large home) where there may be as many as (4) 4-ways in the circuit I guess it's possible to set up your switches so that all are in the down position when the lights are off. But if I were up on a ladder on the 2nd floor changing a bulb, before I came downstairs and made sure all the switches are in the down position, I'd stick my finger in the light socket first to see if there's power !!!
Just kidding !!!

By the way, I believe Levitton is now backlighting all their 3-way Decora style switches but it is backlit with the light being off. However, for that feature to work the neutral is required via the bulb filament. So if the bulb us burnt out where back to sticking our finger in the socket !!!

There should be a section in the NEC for this "Proper testing for presence of electricity". I'm not sure how the wording should be but it should be something like " If your finger is not UL and OSHA approved it should not be used to test light sockets !!!

 

[david]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

I see what you are saying now. You want them wired so if someone went through and placed every (all) 3-way and 4-way in the down position the lights would be off. That would mean that they could not inadvertently miss one.

 

[Guest]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

I thought about using the lighted three-way/4-way switch as an indicator too, but came to essentially the same conclusion. If the bulb is burned out it won't work.

The other stopper is that when the switch is lit there is NO power to the light. When the switch is NOT lit there is power to the light. This in itself would be too confusing. Usually a lit "tester" means the power is on. Not so here.

We can't stop people from experiencing non-lethal shocks. The best we can hope for is to save their lives & to prevent serious injury. I expect to see more GFCI protection as the years roll by.

I have to assume the light bulb broke off as who would stick their finger in a light socket?

 

[earlydean]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Us old timers used to stick our fingers in the light sockets, that's who. Before the invention of static testers, it was so much more convenient than getting out the Wiggins and lining up those leads. Our hands were so calloused from pulling 500 MCM conductors bare-handed (they are much rougher than today's 500 Kcmil) that we could barely feel the juice. In fact, a good old-timer could feel the difference between 120, 208, 240, and even 480 volts by the feel. (480 hurt like the dickens).
All kidding aside, I have felt for 120 volts by using the back of my hand. It is relatively painless, and almost safe. In my old age, however, I use the tester.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation

Phill you can always say I am wrong.

I did not think about all the different combinations that can happen.

All I am saying is you can easily make it so all switches down will result in no power to the socket.

But I would not want to count on this as a safe way to stick my fingers in the socket.

As David said all it would take is someone to miss one switch and they get blasted.

A non contact tester would be the best option for a broken bulb.

Or if this is a homeowner just kill the main and change the bulb.