Outlets Per Breaker

[allenwayne]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Charlie B has a recipe for BBQ`d crow that he says is soooooooo good ,Me I like mine with a side of humble pie

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Originally posted by drg:
Now with that same duplex receptacle can we plug in a freezer AND a refigerator ??

Yes, that would be allowed according to the article .

DRG wins, but I would think I'd need to show a fridge with a seperate attachment plug for the freezer and the fridge, at the final.

I think everybody's overlooking what's tripping me up: If the bottom half of a duplex is being used by the refrigeration equipment, then what is the top half of the duplex doing?

Scott wrote:
The SA circuit is specifically permitted to serve refrigeration equipment in 210.52 B 1

It's not "specifically permitted", Scott: It's required.

Unless I'm proved wrong: I can smell the crow, just can't find the kitchen...

[ May 12, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.

I am an idiot.

Pass that crow, would ya?

[ May 12, 2005, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

I take that back--the box and the receptacle for the refrigeration equipment is required. The extra receptacle...er...

My theory still stands. A duplex would violate it...wouldn't it? I'm late for work. See ya'll tonight!

 

[amptech]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

I still don't see a duplex receptacle on this circuit as a violation. In discussions such as this one and debate is reduced to hair-splitting over wording I usually revert to 90.1 (A) as the basic intent of the NEC and I ask myself what hazard would be presented if a duplex receptacle rather than a single 20A was installed. What hazard is introduced by a second receptacle not being used or not likely to be used? Can you think of any? I'm not being sarcastic here. I am open to anything I may not be considering.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

I still think it is stupid that it is allowed to install an individual circuit for a fridge and if a single device is installed it has to be a 20 amp rated device ,but it is ok to install a 15 amp duplex on same circuit,same box,same fridge.
I could agree if the duplex was a 20 amp rated device,although the appliance is not fastened in place it is not accesible to be used to service a counter top so why allow a duplex rated at 15 amp but if a single device it has to be rated at 20 amps when fed with a 20 amp individual ciruit It`s ok to use a 15 amp rated duplex on a dedicated 20 amp circuit but don`t overfill a box by 1 cu. in.
Phone lines can spider any which way and be unprotected but don`t let a piece of nm be 5 ft 11 1/2 in from a scuttle hole unprotected
If an incandesent fixture is above a door don`t let it be 11 7/8 from shelfs edge even though there is no way to stack the nearest shelf and contact it without having to remove what is there to enter the closet.
You can bury uf that is gfci protected 12 in below grade but don`t bury pvc pipe less than 18 in below grade

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Originally posted by amptech:
Can you think of any? I'm not being sarcastic here. I am open to anything I may not be considering.

Well, if the fridge were close to a sink, someone plugging something into the other receptacle and proceeding to shower said appliance with water could get injured, since it's not on a GFI.

That would be worthy of the Darwin Award, IMO.

When I used it, it was for a TV on the countertop, because the wife just had to put the spare TV in the kitchen. Plugging into that receptacle concealed the cord nicely, hence the appeal.

I too see no real danger inherent in using it. I doubt it was the intent to forbid a duplex, otherwise it would be spelled out clearer. I just enjoy picking things apart, it helps me to gain a more solid understanding of the NEC, personally. Unfortunately for ya'll, that means I inflict mindless interpretations on ya from time to time.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Originally posted by allenwayne:
I still think it is stupid that it is allowed to install an individual circuit for a fridge and if a single device is installed it has to be a 20 amp rated device ,but it is ok to install a 15 amp duplex on same circuit,same box,same fridge.

I think that's a little bit of an oversimplification, Allen.

They can't guess at every scenario, so a catch-all code such as 210.21 seems to be an attempt to ensure that equipment that warrants a dedicated circuit gets a better receptacle. Since general purpose receptacles generally don't provide more than 12 amps, it's reasonable to cut the electricians some slack, allowing 15 amp receptacles for general purpose 20 amp circuit use.

It doesn't seem so stupid to me, but then again, consider the source!

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

If the bottom half of a duplex is being used by the refrigeration equipment, then what is the top half of the duplex doing?

What the hell does it matter?


I really can not see the issue here. In my opinion there is no issue. I honestly do not see what would make a person (yeah you George )think that a refrigerator on a separate 20 amp branch circuit must only have a single receptacle installed. I have been in the trade for 17 years and this is the first I have ever heard it even mentioned. I will not be swayed to change my mind and going in circles is making me dizzy. With that, I'M OUT!

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

I just enjoy picking things apart, it helps me to gain a more solid understanding of the NEC,

[ May 12, 2005, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

I've never been quite so intimidated by a smiley!

 

[physis]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Looks like it might be 25 ounce California framer.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

LMFAO

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Let's beat this dead horse. This might have some relevance. From the latest Electrical Contractor magazine.
Q: The wiring for a new home includes a separate 20 ampere branch circuit for a microwave oven. The outlet for this circuit is located on the underside of a kitchen cabinet above the oven. At trim out I installed a 15 ampere duplex receptacle for this branch circuit. The inspector (His name was George S. ) said the 15 ampere duplex receptacle should be replaced with a single 20 ampere receptacle. Is this a code requirement?
A: No, it is not a code requirement unless the microwave oven has a nameplate rating in excess of 12 amperes on a 15 ampere receptacle and 16 amperes for a 20 ampere receptacle.
A 15 ampere duplex receptacle is two receptacles and is permitted on a 20 ampere branch circuit. For branch circuits that have two or more receptacles, table 210.24 lists 15 and 20 ampere receptacles as suitable for connection to a 20 ampere branch circuit. Although a 15 ampere duplex receptacle is mounted on a single yoke it is two receptacles according to 210.24.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Scott, I thought you were out.
But I'm glad you chimed back in with that.

 

[hmspe]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

For what it's worth, I require single receptacles for all dedicated circuits for refrigerators and freezers in my specifications. I base this on 210-8 (quoting 1999 NEC since it's still prevalent in this area). If it's a refrigerator or freezer in a garage 210-8(a)(2) Exception 2 does not allow a duplex receptacle for one appliance unless the receptacle is GFI protected. For a refrigerator in a kitchen, the second receptacle in a duplex receptacle could essentially only serve the counter top. It might even be within 6' of a sink or basin. That means, for me, that the choices for in kitchen are either (1) a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit, or (2) a GFI protected receptacle/circuit. Since many refrigerators don't play well with GFI, option (1) makes the most sense.

Based on the amount of discussion here I think this would be a good issue to try to get clarified in the 2008 NEC.

Martin

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Originally posted by hmspe:
For what it's worth, I require single receptacles for all dedicated circuits for refrigerators and freezers in my specifications. I base this on 210-8 (quoting 1999 NEC since it's still prevalent in this area). If it's a refrigerator or freezer in a garage 210-8(a)(2) Exception 2 does not allow a duplex receptacle for one appliance unless the receptacle is GFI protected. For a refrigerator in a kitchen, the second receptacle in a duplex receptacle could essentially only serve the counter top. It might even be within 6' of a sink or basin. That means, for me, that the choices for in kitchen are either (1) a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit, or (2) a GFI protected receptacle/circuit. Since many refrigerators don't play well with GFI, option (1) makes the most sense.

Based on the amount of discussion here I think this would be a good issue to try to get clarified in the 2008 NEC.

Martin

Martin, The gargae issue is a totaly different situation form what we are talking about but a valid point.
For a kitchen fridge if you install the receptacle 18" off the floor it does not serve the counter top.
The six foot rule does not come into play here as in a kitchen all counter use recpetacles must be gfci protected.
GFCI's work fine with refrigerators.
Bottom line there is NO reason a refrigerator receptacle in a kitchen MUST be a single receptacle be it a separate 20 amp circuit or seperate 15 amp circuit.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
The outlet for this circuit is located on the underside of a kitchen cabinet above the oven.

I wouldn't have a code to cite for failing this, as it's not serving counterspace if it's over an oven.

[ May 15, 2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[hmspe]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

I guess I should have mentioned that I always call out refrigerator receptacles at +42" a.f.f. Much easier to get to than a receptacle at +12". As to something atop a refrigerator, standard out here is to have cabinets above the refrigerator. Also, one of the other posters mentioned a TV that was, I believe, on the counter but plugged in to the refrigerator receptacle.

FWIW, I've noticed that many here, me included, tend to assume that the way it's done were we live is the way it's done everywhere. There was a question in one of the forums asking about receptacles at a residential panel. Many of the responses were about basement receptacle requirements. Where I live basements are rare and the standard for residential is an "all-in-one", so the panel is outdoors. The fire departments require a disconnecting means on the outside of the house, and pulling the meter isn't good enough. It would never occur to me that a panel would be in a basement unless the poster said so. I've also had problems during inspections with new-to-the-area electricians who wire services "cold sequence". We use "hot sequence" here. Trying to think up a good sentence to encourage everyone to be more complete in describing their situation, but drawing a blank....

Martin

 

[infinity]

Re: Outlets Per Breaker

I've also had problems during inspections with new-to-the-area electricians who wire services "cold sequence". We use "hot sequence" here. Trying to think up a good sentence to encourage everyone to be more complete in describing their situation, but drawing a blank....

Martin,
Good point and how about explaining the difference between the two. I for one have never heard of either term.