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  • George Stolz
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Sorry Allen, I misunderstood. I was thinking you were saying (12") below the countertop. Had the wrong "cabinet" in my head.

    Yes, 20" above the countertop is considered serving the counter sapce.

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  • allenwayne
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    George are you talking about receps mounted under a flat topped counter top ? 210 52 B 5 exception ??? then 12 in comes into play what I mean wasn`t 18 from counter top used in 99 and changed in 02 to 20 ins above countertop.
    I did a custom where H/O`R didn`t want to see a back splash receptacle on his mirrored back splash wall so we stubbed at 54 in all required gfci receps and installed wiremold boves under the upper cabinet on trim i questioned this instak but ahj said it was ok

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  • George Stolz
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Originally posted by allenwayne:
    Didn`t 02 code allow receptacles that are mounted under cabinets but within 20 ins. of countertop to be considered as serving countertops
    Yes.

    Edit: But within 12 in. of countertop.

    [ May 16, 2005, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

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  • allenwayne
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Didn`t 02 code allow receptacles that are mounted under cabinets but within 20 ins. of countertop to be considered as serving countertops 210 52 B 5,99 cycle limited it to 18 ins.A receptacle in a cabinet above a stove for a micro (is the way we have done it for along time requires no gfci protection but we dedicate that circuit.Not required but saves time on rough in and call backs

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  • physis
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Not to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

    My dictionary:

    jar٠gon 4.The specialized vocabulary and idioms of those in the same work, way of life, etc.

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  • infinity
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Got it! Thanks for the link.

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  • hmspe
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Hot sequence means the incoming power hits the meter first, with the disconnect after the meter. Cold sequence means the disconnect comes before the meter. Not exactly jargon -- see http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...2~20020720.htm

    Martin

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  • physis
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    No kidding.

    I try not to use jargon but I'm sure I still do sometimes without even thinking about it.

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  • infinity
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    I've also had problems during inspections with new-to-the-area electricians who wire services "cold sequence". We use "hot sequence" here. Trying to think up a good sentence to encourage everyone to be more complete in describing their situation, but drawing a blank....
    Martin,
    Good point and how about explaining the difference between the two. I for one have never heard of either term.

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  • hmspe
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    I guess I should have mentioned that I always call out refrigerator receptacles at +42" a.f.f. Much easier to get to than a receptacle at +12". As to something atop a refrigerator, standard out here is to have cabinets above the refrigerator. Also, one of the other posters mentioned a TV that was, I believe, on the counter but plugged in to the refrigerator receptacle.

    FWIW, I've noticed that many here, me included, tend to assume that the way it's done were we live is the way it's done everywhere. There was a question in one of the forums asking about receptacles at a residential panel. Many of the responses were about basement receptacle requirements. Where I live basements are rare and the standard for residential is an "all-in-one", so the panel is outdoors. The fire departments require a disconnecting means on the outside of the house, and pulling the meter isn't good enough. It would never occur to me that a panel would be in a basement unless the poster said so. I've also had problems during inspections with new-to-the-area electricians who wire services "cold sequence". We use "hot sequence" here. Trying to think up a good sentence to encourage everyone to be more complete in describing their situation, but drawing a blank....

    Martin

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  • George Stolz
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Originally posted by electricmanscott:
    The outlet for this circuit is located on the underside of a kitchen cabinet above the oven.
    I wouldn't have a code to cite for failing this, as it's not serving counterspace if it's over an oven.

    [ May 15, 2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

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  • electricmanscott
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Originally posted by hmspe:
    For what it's worth, I require single receptacles for all dedicated circuits for refrigerators and freezers in my specifications. I base this on 210-8 (quoting 1999 NEC since it's still prevalent in this area). If it's a refrigerator or freezer in a garage 210-8(a)(2) Exception 2 does not allow a duplex receptacle for one appliance unless the receptacle is GFI protected. For a refrigerator in a kitchen, the second receptacle in a duplex receptacle could essentially only serve the counter top. It might even be within 6' of a sink or basin. That means, for me, that the choices for in kitchen are either (1) a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit, or (2) a GFI protected receptacle/circuit. Since many refrigerators don't play well with GFI, option (1) makes the most sense.

    Based on the amount of discussion here I think this would be a good issue to try to get clarified in the 2008 NEC.

    Martin
    Martin, The gargae issue is a totaly different situation form what we are talking about but a valid point.
    For a kitchen fridge if you install the receptacle 18" off the floor it does not serve the counter top.
    The six foot rule does not come into play here as in a kitchen all counter use recpetacles must be gfci protected.
    GFCI's work fine with refrigerators.
    Bottom line there is NO reason a refrigerator receptacle in a kitchen MUST be a single receptacle be it a separate 20 amp circuit or seperate 15 amp circuit.

    Leave a comment:


  • hmspe
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    For what it's worth, I require single receptacles for all dedicated circuits for refrigerators and freezers in my specifications. I base this on 210-8 (quoting 1999 NEC since it's still prevalent in this area). If it's a refrigerator or freezer in a garage 210-8(a)(2) Exception 2 does not allow a duplex receptacle for one appliance unless the receptacle is GFI protected. For a refrigerator in a kitchen, the second receptacle in a duplex receptacle could essentially only serve the counter top. It might even be within 6' of a sink or basin. That means, for me, that the choices for in kitchen are either (1) a single receptacle on a dedicated circuit, or (2) a GFI protected receptacle/circuit. Since many refrigerators don't play well with GFI, option (1) makes the most sense.

    Based on the amount of discussion here I think this would be a good issue to try to get clarified in the 2008 NEC.

    Martin

    Leave a comment:


  • luke warmwater
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Scott, I thought you were out.
    But I'm glad you chimed back in with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • electricmanscott
    replied
    Re: Outlets Per Breaker

    Let's beat this dead horse. This might have some relevance. From the latest Electrical Contractor magazine.
    Q: The wiring for a new home includes a separate 20 ampere branch circuit for a microwave oven. The outlet for this circuit is located on the underside of a kitchen cabinet above the oven. At trim out I installed a 15 ampere duplex receptacle for this branch circuit. The inspector (His name was George S. ) said the 15 ampere duplex receptacle should be replaced with a single 20 ampere receptacle. Is this a code requirement?
    A: No, it is not a code requirement unless the microwave oven has a nameplate rating in excess of 12 amperes on a 15 ampere receptacle and 16 amperes for a 20 ampere receptacle.
    A 15 ampere duplex receptacle is two receptacles and is permitted on a 20 ampere branch circuit. For branch circuits that have two or more receptacles, table 210.24 lists 15 and 20 ampere receptacles as suitable for connection to a 20 ampere branch circuit. Although a 15 ampere duplex receptacle is mounted on a single yoke it is two receptacles according to 210.24.

    Leave a comment:

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