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    #16
    Originally posted by Coppersmith View Post

    It's also not going to move if a screw starts pushing it. The screw will just go right through it.
    You're correct it probably will but it's still not a code violation. Staple it to the stud without the 1.25" clearance and it is a violation.
    Rob

    Moderator

    All responses based on the 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted

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      #17
      Originally posted by Coppersmith View Post

      If I attach a deep new work plastic junction box to a stud and insert an NM cable in the connector closest to the stud, that cable is less than 1.25" from the face of the stud. Please explain why nail plates are not required in this situation.

      (I would have liked to post a picture, but alas....)
      I take it you are talking about clearance on the back side of wall - I have questioned that myself at times.
      I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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        #18

        Originally posted by Coppersmith View Post
        If I attach a deep new work plastic junction box to a stud and insert an NM cable in the connector closest to the stud, that cable is less than 1.25" from the face of the stud. Please explain why nail plates are not required in this situation.
        This is where you get to the heart of the matter, in my opinion. This example is about the section of NM cable between the entry to an NM wall box and the first strap securing the NM cable to the stud. This 8" to 12" length of NM cable is NOT installed parallel to the framing member because the cable must come away from the stud surface at the staple at an angle (no longer parallel) to the box entry, therefore it is not covered by the rule describing NM "where installed parallel to the framing member." 2017 NEC 300.4(D). This 8" to 12" is ALMOST parallel, but the Code doesn't say "almost parallel", only parallel.

        Where PARALLEL to the framing member OR furring strip, the NM cable has to be 1-1/4" behind or away from the "nearest edge" of the framing or furring, or else it has to be nailplated. To me, the huge hole in this concept concerns the nailplating strategy. When NM cable is going through framing in holes or notches, the nailplate only covers the framing, not the additional 1-1/4" on either side of the framing; AND, in the case of your example that I quote above, the NM cable that is not parallel to the framing / furring doesn't have a requirement for nailplating, in my opinion.

        In my experience, AHJs have differing opinions about this.
        Another Al in Minnesota

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          #19
          Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post

          This is where you get to the heart of the matter, in my opinion. This example is about the section of NM cable between the entry to an NM wall box and the first strap securing the NM cable to the stud. This 8" to 12" length of NM cable is NOT installed parallel to the framing member because the cable must come away from the stud surface at the staple at an angle (no longer parallel) to the box entry, therefore it is not covered by the rule describing NM "where installed parallel to the framing member." 2017 NEC 300.4(D). This 8" to 12" is ALMOST parallel, but the Code doesn't say "almost parallel", only parallel.

          Where PARALLEL to the framing member OR furring strip, the NM cable has to be 1-1/4" behind or away from the "nearest edge" of the framing or furring, or else it has to be nailplated. To me, the huge hole in this concept concerns the nailplating strategy. When NM cable is going through framing in holes or notches, the nailplate only covers the framing, not the additional 1-1/4" on either side of the framing; AND, in the case of your example that I quote above, the NM cable that is not parallel to the framing / furring doesn't have a requirement for nailplating, in my opinion.

          In my experience, AHJs have differing opinions about this.
          Good technical description of how it may be excluded from NEC - still in somewhat of a danger zone for being pierced by a nail or screw that missed the stud when hanging the drywall
          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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            #20
            Originally posted by kwired View Post
            Good technical description of how it may be excluded from NEC

            Thanks. First start with what the Code actually says. . . that's the minimum installation required by the text, by the "Holy Writ".


            Originally posted by kwired View Post
            still in somewhat of a danger zone for being pierced by a nail or screw that missed the stud when hanging the drywall
            Yes, there are bits of additional, beyond-NEC-minimum installation that will make a roughin harder for rockers, et. al., to damage.
            Another Al in Minnesota

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              #21
              Originally posted by al hildenbrand View Post
              the Code doesn't say "almost parallel", only parallel.
              So you can zig zag up the furring bay by stapling to the furring strip on one side, then the other, and it's all good, as it's only "almost parallel"?

              Cheers, Wayne

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                #22
                Originally posted by wwhitney View Post
                So you can zig zag up the furring bay by stapling to the furring strip on one side, then the other, and it's all good, as it's only "almost parallel"?
                Yeah, we've played these word games before. . .or maybe its a math definition game, . . . or maybe it is what I'm typing right now: It's an abstracted game about a game.

                Whatever.

                Side stepping your parry, I lift up Rob's near perfect zen koan of "installing parallel to":
                Originally posted by infinity View Post
                You're correct it probably will but it's still not a code violation.
                Staple it to the stud without the 1.25" clearance and it is a violation.
                Another Al in Minnesota

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Coppersmith View Post

                  It's also not going to move if a screw starts pushing it. The screw will just go right through it.
                  I've stated my position on this before. It should be prohibited to run wiring within a 1x furred wall cavity. No matter how you do it it's never going to be 1-1/4" from the back of the sheetrock. The Code doesn't think that's important but a screw or nail in the right place is going to get the cable.

                  -Hal

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by hbiss View Post

                    I've stated my position on this before. It should be prohibited to run wiring within a 1x furred wall cavity. No matter how you do it it's never going to be 1-1/4" from the back of the sheetrock. The Code doesn't think that's important but a screw or nail in the right place is going to get the cable.

                    -Hal
                    With that approach one must assume nothing will ever penetrate the wall more than 1-1/4 inches beyond the framing either - not true. The risk is simply higher near the framing members. I've seen longer than needed nails or screws used many times to fasten all sorts of items to a wall, that 1-1/4 rule just helps prevent mishaps from some of the most common things out there.
                    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by infinity View Post

                      The protection plate is required to be a minimum of 1/16". The exception allows for the plate to be less than 1/16" if it is listed and marked.


                      'I am a nail plate' ......? ~RJ~

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by romex jockey View Post

                        'I am a nail plate' ......? ~RJ~
                        You're scarin' me, RJ ! !
                        Another Al in Minnesota

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                          #27
                          The 'assumption' in the ex is, using a marker Al

                          iirc, the code addressed this elsewhere

                          ~RJ~

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by kwired View Post

                            With that approach one must assume nothing will ever penetrate the wall more than 1-1/4 inches beyond the framing either - not true. The risk is simply higher near the framing members. I've seen longer than needed nails or screws used many times to fasten all sorts of items to a wall, that 1-1/4 rule just helps prevent mishaps from some of the most common things out there.
                            True. But after a wall is finished, nobody knows where the studs are, or they aren't even looking for them, least of all homeowners. At least with 2x framing the nail or screw can push the cable back, especially with Colorado Jims that allow movement and the cable is probably more than 1-1/4" from the back of the sheetrock also. But with only 3/4" behind the sheetrock, it's guaranteed that even a 1" screw or nail is going to pin the cable back against the concrete and penetrate it. The odds become exponentially greater for damage.

                            -Hal

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by hbiss View Post

                              True. But after a wall is finished, nobody knows where the studs are, or they aren't even looking for them, least of all homeowners. At least with 2x framing the nail or screw can push the cable back, especially with Colorado Jims that allow movement and the cable is probably more than 1-1/4" from the back of the sheetrock also. But with only 3/4" behind the sheetrock, it's guaranteed that even a 1" screw or nail is going to pin the cable back against the concrete and penetrate it. The odds become exponentially greater for damage.

                              -Hal
                              Sounds like you should make a proposal for the 2023 NEC.
                              Another Al in Minnesota

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                                #30
                                They will just say that AFCIs will take care of it.

                                -Hal

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